The Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov, who was he?

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  • Epirot
    Member
    • Mar 2010
    • 399

    #31
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    Epirot, you have been respectful enough since you have been here, but seriously, the Ohrid agreement is a national betrayal where Macedonians are forced into negotiating the status of their nation-state with Albanians. .
    How could be Ohrid agreement a national betrayal, while it has respected internationally sovereignty of Macedonia?

    If a foreign man (who isn't familiar with Macedonia's problems) reads your post he will get the impression that Albanians rose up in an uprising only because they wish to take weapons and to fight without reason. No normal human being love wars. All hate it.

    That's why the system we call as democracy makes possible of resolving problems and conflicts without taking guns, violence, etc. But in the pre-period of uprising, there were exhausted ways of resolving normally problems. Some irresponsible political circles of Macedonian policy rose up a special war against Albanians.
    In all aspects, Albanians were discriminated culturally, economically, politically, etc. Have a look how far went fascism mentality of some paramilitaries:


    Excerpt from the "MACEDONIA PARAMILITARY 2000 ORDER":

    "We order all Shiptars [derogatory term for ethnic Albanians-tr.] who have objects for sale-shopkeepers here and around the Kwantaskhi bazaar-to leave within three days, and for those Shiptars from Aracinovo, the deadline is 24 hours. After this deadline, all the shops will be burned, and if someone tries to protect [them], the same will be killed without warning."
    "We inform Shiptars of the Macedonian republic that for every killed police officer or soldier 100 Shiptars who do not have citizenship or who took citizenship after 1994 will be killed. For every police officer or soldier disabled, 50 Shiptars will be killed. For every wounded police officer or soldier wounded, 10 Shiptars will be killed, no matter what gender or age."
    Imagine if you were an Albanian of Aracinovo. Aracinovo is surrounded on all sides by large bands of paramilitaries. Your kids, your innocent family is inside critic zone. You wouldn't hesitate to save your family...but you will be killed if you try to help them. And if you persist to protect your family let suppose you kill one of paramilitaries. They will revenge to kill 100 or 50 other Albanian.

    So if nothing else, Ohrid agreement should be taken in consideration because prohibit some potential criminals to make such atrocities.

    Originally posted by SoM

    There are issues between our people that need to be addressed. Macedonia is the nation-state of the Macedonians and home to all its people, minorities and citizens.
    Then my answer is as following:

    "The key to Macedonian stability rests with the Albanians and the Macedonians. Albanians have their representatives in the Macedonian government and the are supporting Macedonias integrity. In the long run, though, Macedonia has to become a state based on citizenship and not on nationality. The Macedonian state must cease to identify exclusively with the Macedonians as an ethnic group, it must cease to be the state of the Macedonians. Otherwise, there is not going to be any kind of peace in Macedonia no matter how much support is given to Macedonians and Gligorov by the international community. In the past, the Albanians in Macedonia have shown that they could live in peace with the Macedonians. It is the Macedonian state which should do more to convince the Albanians to support Macedonia. If the Macedonian state is able to solve its internal matters in the proper way, that is by becoming the state of all citizens of Macedonia, there should be no reason for the international community to continue to live in fear that Macedonia will dissolve at any regional whirlwind. Albanians in Macedonia will support the integrity of the Macedonian state."

    http://www.albanian.com/IJAS/vol2/is1/art1.html
    Originally posted by SoM

    The ethnic Albanians in Macedonia deserve all of the rights that other minorities have, and nothing more. They are not a special case
    I am not saying that Albanians should be a special case...but considering Albanians as a minority when they constitute more than 26% of Macedonia's population is far away of being correct.

    Originally posted by SoM

    Put yourself in our shoes and then ask yourself how long you would tolerate the 'Greek' community in Albania putting up Greek flags all over Gjirokaster, not allowing authorities to access certain villages, disrespecting the state they live in, calling for national treason by supporting a name change of Albania
    Your example does not fit with the concrete situation in Macedonia. Firstly, Albanians of Macedonia aren't Macedonians who take from Albania subventions or financial aids to declare themselves as Albanians. The "Greeks" of southern Albania are nothing more nothing less than a bunch of some deluded Orthodox Albanians who change their nationality to get a better economical conditions. Secondly, according to the available data these "Greeks" hardly constitute more than 3% of general population (T.Winirith a well-respected British scholar estimate their number as 40.000-60.000).

    Thirdly, Albanians of Macedonia do not support changing of constitutional name of Macedonia. Republic of Albania was one of the first states who admitted Macedonia's independence and its constitutional name. Also Kosova recognize Macedonia's official name.

    Originally posted by SoM

    not allowing authorities to access certain villages, disrespecting the state they live in,
    And how can I allow those authorities to access in my village when I know prior that they could terrorize all inhabitants of my village. Remember Brodec conflict. Those authorities that were involved there...never apologize to the innocent people that were terrorized by such actions.
    Last edited by Epirot; 08-04-2010, 01:57 PM.
    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

    Comment

    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      #32
      Originally posted by makedonin View Post
      I don't see the Albanians with German or American passports doing the same things to their respective National States, Germany and America, as what they do in the R. of Macedonia, even though they don't have their own parties and envoys for pursuing their human rights.
      Mate you cannot draw such a parallel!

      Do you consider Albanians as emigrant community in Macedonia who came there to get jobs for themselves?
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

      Comment

      • Serdarot
        Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 605

        #33
        Epirot, you are very misleaded / biased.

        Yes, big number of Albanians are JUST settlers in Macedonia. Nothing more. No "authohtonic" population, no "natives on by slavs-occupied land". (some Albanians probably live in Macedonia for a very long period, probably several hundert of years, but i daubt that any Albanian lived in Bitola in ancient or early medieval period)

        And NO, NO paramilitary AROUND Arachinovo, the paramilitary , or better said terrorist, drug dealers and junkies were IN Arachinovo. Surrounded by REGULAR troops.

        Later, after they waved their "white" underwear in sign of surender, NATO / US marines came and tooked armed terorist, together with their weapons, HEROIN LABORATORIES parts, and TONS OF HEROIN, out of Republic of Macedonia, to Kosovo.

        Dude, if you want to live in some "pink"* movie, ok, but if you want to speak about facts - than facts.

        I agree, Macedonians and Albanians were not enemies. Yes, they often suffered almost same problems, fought together, drn drn, bla bla.

        But after all the problems the Albanians are cousing to the Macedonians in the last ~ 150 years, that has changed. Ali Pasha, the bands / gangs of Albanians who were terorising the Macedonians, the Bali Kombetare / "Balists" (fascist collaborators and prooved sadistic criminals), and many other examples, as much the list is getting better, the previous sentence is changing.

        So YOU, the Albanians have to realise some things, and show will for friendship. Do not idealize the Albanians in Republic of Macedonia, i guess you are not aware of the reality at all.

        YES, there are wonderfull people among them, and i am happy to have few Albanians for friends. But one small piece of the Mosaic, is not the complete picture

        Try to see how many Albanians concider us "dirty slavs occupying traditionaly Albanian Land"

        lol, very motivating for us, to forget and forgive that

        "piskotnici se slushaat od Galichnik and Reka..."

        p.s.

        try read a bit about my nick


        greetings


        * = pink not as symbol for something homosexual, but as "milk and honey" , or untrue, false, unreal...

        edit:

        wrong topic for Albanian-Macedonian relations, we can debate about them on some more apropiate topic
        Last edited by Serdarot; 08-04-2010, 03:23 PM.
        Bratot:
        Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13669

          #34
          Originally posted by Epirot
          How could be Ohrid agreement a national betrayal, while it has respected internationally sovereignty of Macedonia?
          The international sovereignty of Macedonia was already respected, ethnic Albanian extremists are the one's who ruined that sovereignty and changed the make up how Macedonia was operated.
          If a foreign man (who isn't familiar with Macedonia's problems) reads your post he will get the impression that Albanians rose up in an uprising only because they wish to take weapons and to fight without reason.
          Invalid as it was, they had a reason, they wanted to separate western territories of Macedonia and turn it into their own little 'statelet'. So the foreigners impression wouldn't be too far off the mark.
          Excerpt from the "MACEDONIA PARAMILITARY 2000 ORDER":

          "We order all Shiptars [derogatory term for ethnic Albanians-tr.] who have objects for sale-shopkeepers here and around the Kwantaskhi bazaar-to leave within three days, and for those Shiptars from Aracinovo, the deadline is 24 hours. After this deadline, all the shops will be burned, and if someone tries to protect [them], the same will be killed without warning."
          "We inform Shiptars of the Macedonian republic that for every killed police officer or soldier 100 Shiptars who do not have citizenship or who took citizenship after 1994 will be killed. For every police officer or soldier disabled, 50 Shiptars will be killed. For every wounded police officer or soldier wounded, 10 Shiptars will be killed, no matter what gender or age."
          Can you please provide a link to a source for this? I would like to know what inspired these Macedonians to make such statements, and if there was any prior provocation on the part of ethnic Albanians.
          The Macedonian state must cease to identify exclusively with the Macedonians as an ethnic group, it must cease to be the state of the Macedonians.
          What a pathetic and demeaning statement, after which I cannot help but lose a certain level of respect for you, particularly because you condone such idiocy. Everybody in the Balkans has their nation-state, so do the Macedonians, and we look after our minorities. There is no cause for complaint, ethnic Albanians are in Macedonia, MACEDONIA, and you people have ZERO respect for the land, people and language. Even an apparent 'moderate' like you is indoctrinated with the same garbage spewed up by Albanian racists.
          I am not saying that Albanians should be a special case...but considering Albanians as a minority when they constitute more than 26% of Macedonia's population is far away of being correct.
          We can talk about figures all you like, there is no way that Macedonia has a 26% ethnic Albanian population, but even if it did, it is MACEDONIA, you ask for special treatment as a minority yet the Macedonians cannot ask for the same level of respect expected by Albanians in Albania? Can't you see the hypocrisy in what you write?
          The "Greeks" of southern Albania are nothing more nothing less than a bunch of some deluded Orthodox Albanians who change their nationality to get a better economical conditions. Secondly, according to the available data these "Greeks" hardly constitute more than 3% of general population (T.Winirith a well-respected British scholar estimate their number as 40.000-60.000).
          Your missing the point. What IF they did everything that ethnic Albanians have done in Macedonia, would you find it acceptable? Simple question.
          Thirdly, Albanians of Macedonia do not support changing of constitutional name of Macedonia.
          Are you serious? Show me ONE ethnic Albanian in Macedonia that has come out in support of Macedonian integrity where it concerns the national name of the country?
          Republic of Albania was one of the first states who admitted Macedonia's independence and its constitutional name.
          As I stated before, Albanians of Albania are a different kettle of fish compared to the more extremist elements living in Macedonia and Kosovo.
          Also Kosova recognize Macedonia's official name.
          Are you sure about that? Can you confirm it with some evidence, because the last time I heard, it was the opposite to what you say.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #35
            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
            I have a bit a problem of understanding you! Is there any difference between Albanians in Republic of Macedonia and others outside it?

            I am serious when I say that Albanians aren't enemies of Macedonians because history tells of a traditional good relationship between two peoples. Political circumstances causes that Albanians and Macedonians are friends of each other since both of them share the same destiny of being divided by neighboring countries like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece.
            I don't know if there is a major difference in an ethnic sense. But thats not what i was on about and i think you know that. Just to make it clear so there's no further confusion,
            One group of Ethnic Albanians live in ROM, who took up arms recently and have the most rights than any minority in the world, but still aren't satisfied. You know, the Menduh Thaci type.

            The other group of Ethnic Albanians live on the main land "Albania" that had nothing to do with the recent terrorist activities in the ROM, infact some politicians and media shake their heads in disbelief at what their kin are doing in the ROM.

            This is why we must seperate them. Its not fair blaming the Albanians from the main land for what these spoilt terrorists in the ROM are doing.

            I will rephrase the question.

            Do you seriously, don't know why we are angry and don't trust the ethnic Albanians "In the ROM"?
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • Pelister
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2742

              #36
              Originally posted by Onur
              This should be the truth. My grandmother always told us same for Petrich at pre-1913 era. She was always telling us that the christians in that town was Macedonians. She never told us like they were Bulgars. If these people would identify themselves as Bulgars, then my grandmother would say us that they were Bulgars. Also whenever someone asked her about where she was from, she was telling us that she is from Macedonia. And you know, Petrich is in far north, so close to Bulgar populated areas. So, if the people in Petrich considered themselves as Macedonians, then there is no way that the people at southern sides would have been identified themselves as Bulgars either.
              Originally posted by Onur
              Also whenever she gets a bit nervous or joyous, she was starting to speak in a language which was foreign to me or speaking in Turkish with foreign words. When i asked her like "what are you telling me, i don't understand. Whats this language?". Then she was responding like "Makedonca" in Turkish, so "Macedonian language".

              Onur, this is an important piece of history. It might not seem like much to most people, but for us Macedonians it is these kinds of testimonies that are very, very important to us.

              It would help us alot if your grandmothers comments about the people in Petrich 'calling themselves Macedonians' was recorded or published in some way. I would encourage you to write about her in a small book and the things she says about her past.

              This request might seem a bit strange and even a bit unreasonable at first, but the problem for us Macedonians is that we are buried - we have been buried beneath one colonial narrative after another, whether its a Greek narrative, or a Bulgarian narrative or a Western narrative. It is the testimonies of wonderful women like your grandmother that keeps what we have always known in our hearts and in our families, alive, but not enough has been recorded.

              As for Kanchov, Daskalot, he also made the startling admission that the ethnic borders of the Macedonians was well known, and clearly defined. Think about that 'clearly defined borders' - it challenges another myth.
              Last edited by Pelister; 08-04-2010, 09:29 PM.

              Comment

              • makedonin
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1668

                #37
                Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                Mate you cannot draw such a parallel!

                Do you consider Albanians as emigrant community in Macedonia who came there to get jobs for themselves?
                That does not has to do anything with being emigrant or not.

                It has everything to do with being citizent of certain country! Being citizent gives you certain rights and certain obligations toward the country you are citizent of.

                If you are citizent of Germany or America, it is of no concern if you are with any imigration background to that country before the law! You are equal with everybody that has that citizenship.

                That is where all ends.

                What some extremist Albanians (Menduh Taci type) from Macedonia try to do is to pull some card that don't apply anywhere else in the world. They as citizents of certain country want to have extra previleges, even though they have many more than they have in other countries. They have democratic tools such as parties etc. to conduct their needs.

                And still they as citizents of Macedonia are found guilty of offending the Macedonian state and did many wrongs against the country that they are citizents of.

                If they did that as citizents of Germany or America they would have been bihind bars or even executed and not be given amnesty and other previleges for their past offenses.

                That is only possible in Macedonia and the Balkans under conduct of foreign powers.


                PS this is not the thread where we should discuss this, so let it be.
                Last edited by makedonin; 08-05-2010, 03:16 AM.
                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                Comment

                • Epirot
                  Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 399

                  #38
                  Sorry SoM that I respond so late...I was too busy for most of this week. Now I'am trying to give answers toward your comments.

                  Originally posted by SoM

                  Are you serious? Show me ONE ethnic Albanian in Macedonia that has come out in support of Macedonian integrity where it concerns the national name of the country?
                  Albanians do not oppose the Constitutional name of Macedonia. All of them admit it politically. When I say politically I mean that official position of Albanians is that they support Macedonia's constitutional name. Until know Albanians have oppose only a bizarre proposition that Macedonia should be called 'Slavic Republic of Macedonia'. Albanians would never agreed with such proposition.

                  Originally posted by SoM

                  Are you sure about that? Can you confirm it with some evidence, because the last time I heard, it was the opposite to what you say
                  I find you a very interesting type! You appear to have great knowledge about history, politics, etc while you call as a proof some hearsays. Let me assure you that Kosova has recognize Macedonia with its constitutional name.

                  Kosovo recognized the neighbouring country under the constitutional name, Republic of Macedonia.

                  Hyseni: Kosovo recognizes Macedonia's constitutional name

                  Tirana, October 13 (MIA) - Kosovo recognizes Macedonia under its constitutional name, and Pristina will recognize its neighbor under name Macedonia, Kosovo Foreign Minister Skender Hyseni told BBC, MIA reports from Tirana.

                  "Name Macedonia is not a topic for Kosovo. This means that Kosovo accepts Macedonia under the name it has chosen", said Hyseni in a Tirana TV station "Top Channel" broadcast. ik/fd/10:18

                  http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?v...lId=2&pmId=502
                  From 1990's until now, Albanians never disputed Macedonia's name or identity of Macedonians. Furthermore, from all Macedonia's neighbors only Albania recognize officially the existence of a Macedonian minority in Albania.
                  Do Bulgarians accept a Macedonian minority in Pirin?
                  Do Greeks accept a Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia?

                  Originally posted by SoM

                  Can you please provide a link to a source for this? I would like to know what inspired these Macedonians to make such statements, and if there was any prior provocation on the part of ethnic Albanians.


                  There was no provocation by Albanians side since how could small kids, women and old men cause troubles to more than ten thousands of Macedonians. These Macedonians were inspired by some blind ethno-nationalists who are not interested for a stability in Macedonia.

                  As tens of thousands of Macedonians gathered in the streets of Skopje tonight, Human Rights Watch warned that the threat of ethnic violence in the country was rising sharply.

                  A pamphlet being circulated in the vicinity of Skopje by a group calling itself Macedonia Paramilitary 2000 has warned that ethnic Albanians must leave Macedonia by tonight, or be killed and have their homes and shops burned.
                  IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13669

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Epirot
                    Albanians do not oppose the Constitutional name of Macedonia. All of them admit it politically. When I say politically I mean that official position of Albanians is that they support Macedonia's constitutional name.
                    OK, then I will ask for the second time, show me an ethnic Albanian in Macedonia that has come out in support of Macedonian integrity where it concerns the national name of the country? Who among your people has said "we will never give up the name of the country in which we live"? On the other hand, you'd be aware of the claim to some fantasy "Illirida", wouldn't you?
                    Until know Albanians have oppose only a bizarre proposition that Macedonia should be called 'Slavic Republic of Macedonia'. Albanians would never agreed with such proposition.
                    Epirot, I think you're finding it difficult to come to terms with some of the cold facts about the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia. Your people do not have the right to negotiate on Macedonia's name.
                    I find you a very interesting type! You appear to have great knowledge about history, politics, etc while you call as a proof some hearsays.
                    What are you talking about? What heresy? I asked you to prove your assertion with some evidence, because there was talk in the past that Kosovo may not recognise Macedonia by its official name.
                    From 1990's until now, Albanians never disputed Macedonia's name or identity of Macedonians.
                    There are several examples of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia denigrating the Macedonian state and identity. Don't pretend to be naive, you don't appear the type.
                    Furthermore, from all Macedonia's neighbors only Albania recognize officially the existence of a Macedonian minority in Albania.
                    Serbia also recognises the Macedonian minority, so Albania isn't the only one. Serbia doesn't recognise the Macedonian Orthodox Church, but Serbia doesn't send in goverment officials to close down schools in the Macedonian language for children, like Albania does. Both can only be considered as a lesser evil than Greece and Bulgaria.
                    There was no provocation by Albanians side since how could small kids, women and old men cause troubles to more than ten thousands of Macedonians. These Macedonians were inspired by some blind ethno-nationalists who are not interested for a stability in Macedonia.
                    No provocation? They provoked the war against Macedonia and the Macedonian people. This pamplet appears emotional, but the 'war' was still on at the time it was written. Do you want to compare this with the ethnic Albanian terrorists' desecration of Macedonian bodies, and their glorification of that act?
                    The Macedonian state must cease to identify exclusively with the Macedonians as an ethnic group, it must cease to be the state of the Macedonians.
                    I just wanted to highlight the above again so everybody is aware of what your sentiments are towards Macedonians. What you have said is absolutely pathetic, and I am troubled by the fact that a 'moderate' like you would speak like this.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Rogi
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2343

                      #40
                      He is no moderate, not by a long shot.

                      He is an extremist of the most dangerous kind in every sense of the word, attempting to shroud his racist, extremist and secessionist views with a diplomatic double-speak. He has been unsuccessful in his endeavour here.

                      Furthermore, each and every one of his claims and statements can be refuted by the actual published statements of his own leaders.

                      Indeed, even the Albanian intellectuals in the Republic of Albania will denounce all of his statements and views, and have done just that on many occasions.

                      If he intends to be speaking of pamphlets, perhaps he could explain the ones being distributed throughout the halls of the US Congress since the 50's, depicting a map of larger Albania in which the most significant portion of the Republic of Macedonia is shown to be part of one greater Albanian state.

                      As for historical relations between the Albanians and all other ethnic groups on the Balkan peninsula, perhaps he could indicate the period of history to which he is referring?

                      Perhaps we should look at a reverse-chronological history of those historical relations between the Albanians and other ethnic groups that our counterpart Epir seems to speak so highly of...


                      Today, the Albanian community is opening its arms, wallets and mosque's to an extremist Wahhabi movement which is advocating for an eventual war against the Macedonian people.

                      Ten (10) years ago Albanian terrorists declared war on the Republic of Macedonia, with seperatist motives, largely to secure their drug-routes, by playing on the deep-seated ethnocentric ultra-nationalism of the mainstream Albanian minority.

                      Twenty (20) years ago the mainstream Albanian community in the Republic of Macedonia officially opposed the independence of the Republic of Macedonia and then organised a referendum in 1992 for secession or large territories of the Republic of Macedonia.

                      Fifty (50) to sixty years ago the Albanian community engaged in substantial international campaigns to destabilise the (then Socialist) Republic of Macedonia, whilst quote openly and publicly brandished their extremist and secessionist views, campaigning for a Greater Albania, their pamphlets reaching as far as the halls of the United States Congress and Senate.

                      Seventy (70) years ago the Albanians joined forces with a fascist Italy in their secessionist attempt to create a Greater Albania, which included the most substantial portion of northwestern Macedonia

                      Ninety (90) years ago, the Albanian state took part in the division of Macedonian land thus beginning the process of denationalisation and forced assimilation, or ethnocide, offering very little, if any, rights and freedoms (to this day, might I add) to the substantial Macedonian minority living on the Macedonian land siezed by Albania via the Treaty of Versailles.

                      One hundred and ten and more (110+) years ago, the Albanians were largely known as the Ottoman vassals, doing the dirty work of the Ottomans, raiding, razing and pillaging many Macedonian villages, killing many Macedonians.


                      If, as you suggest, we are take the Albanian nationalism from a historical perspective, we will only see that there has been no attempt at all by the Albanians for any degree of co-existence with other ethnic groups. Indeed it has been provocation after provocation. Despite this, the Republic of Macedonia had still gone above and beyond any nation in South Eastern Europe in providing full minority rights to the Albanian minority in Macedonia - this was before the Ohrid Framework Agreement (which will be the eventual catalyst for division, destabilisation and secession, already providing an Unconstitutional de facto autonomy).
                      Last edited by Rogi; 08-12-2010, 09:50 AM.

                      Comment

                      • makedonin
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1668

                        #41
                        Epirot,

                        you quoted:

                        all Shiptars [derogatory term for ethnic Albanians-tr.]
                        Why do you consider the Shiptars as derogatory term?

                        You among your self call your self Shqiptar some Shqiptare. Ok I admint there is the "q">"ch" character which is missing in Shiptar, but that is normal lose of a consonant during language shift. In Macedonian this word is foreign, thus that is why it loses the "q">"ch" character. It is similar to you calling us Maqedon in your own language while in our language it is Makedonec!

                        So I am wondering about your explaination why you consider your own name as derogatory?

                        I know that I can say the following things in Albanian, which are perfectly normal, and not considered derogatory:

                        Question: A je Shqiptar? > Are you Albanian?
                        Answear: Po Shqiptar or Un jam Shqiptar. > I am Albanian.
                        Flet shqip? or A di shqip? > Do you speak Albanian?


                        So why are you offenced by being called Shiptar?
                        Last edited by makedonin; 08-12-2010, 09:48 AM.
                        To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                        Comment

                        • Rogi
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2343

                          #42
                          Imagine if you were an Albanian of Aracinovo. Aracinovo is surrounded on all sides by large bands of paramilitaries. Your kids, your innocent family is inside critic zone. You wouldn't hesitate to save your family...but you will be killed if you try to help them. And if you persist to protect your family let suppose you kill one of paramilitaries. They will revenge to kill 100 or 50 other Albanian.
                          A blatant fabrication.

                          To begin with, Aracinovo was not surrounded by a paramilitary. Therefore, that excerpt you provided bears no significance no relevance to the actual situation, since the 'paramilitary' who's excerpt you have quoted, held no bearing over the situation which you are describing.


                          The 400 KLA terrorists who had retreated to Aracinovo and simultaneously threatened that one of their cells would bomb populated areas in Skopje, were later transported by buses and given amnesty, and were in fact surrounded by the official army of the Republic of Macedonia. Many of the soldiers themselves, were Albanians.

                          All citizens were required and free to evacuate what had become a war zone, most of whom did.

                          Your attempt to re-write the history of what actually transpired, will not fly.
                          Last edited by Rogi; 08-12-2010, 10:03 AM.

                          Comment

                          • makedonin
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1668

                            #43
                            Something more on Aracinovo:

                            The message was made clear in May, when U.S. diplomat Robert Fenwick, ostensibly the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, in Macedonia, met secretly in Prizren, Kosovo, with the leaders of the Albanian political parties and KLA representatives. Macedonian officials were not invited. It was clear the United States was backing the Albanian terrorist cause. This was confirmed a month later, when a force of 400 KLA fighters was surrounded in the town of Aracinovo near the capital, Skopje. As Macedonian security forces moved in, they were halted on NATO orders.

                            U.S. army buses from Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo arrived to remove all the heavily armed terrorists to a safer area of Macedonia. German reporters later revealed that 17 U.S. military advisors were accompanying the KLA terrorists in Aracinovo.

                            In August, fearing the Macedonian forces might be able to defeat the KLA, U.S. Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice flew to Kiev and ordered the Ukrainian government to stop sending further military equipment to Macedonia. Since Ukraine was the only country supplying Macedonia with military assistance, the Macedonians realized continued resistance against the KLA terrorists, the EU and NATO was futile. Macedonia was forced to concede defeat and obliged to accept all the terrorist demands. When the peace treaty was signed, Lord Robertson proclaimed, "This day marks the entry of Macedonia into modern, mainstream Europe ... a very proud day for their country."

                            Alexandra Richard. Dubai, one of the seven emirates of the Federation of the United Arab Emirates, North-East of Abi-Dhabi. This city, population 350,000, was the backdrop of a secret meeting between Osama bin Laden and the local CIA agent in July. A partner of the administration of the American Hospital in Dubai claims that public enemy number one stayed at this hospital between the 4th and 14th of July.
                            A proud day for our country, my ass....
                            Last edited by makedonin; 08-12-2010, 10:29 AM.
                            To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

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                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              OK, then I will ask for the second time, show me an ethnic Albanian in Macedonia that has come out in support of Macedonian integrity where it concerns the national name of the country? Who among your people has said "we will never give up the name of the country in which we live"? On the other hand, you'd be aware of the claim to some fantasy "Illirida", wouldn't you?
                              As far as I know political parties of Albanians in Macedonia asked that Albanians should not be neglected in name's issue. If Albanians won't be ignored this does not mean that they support Greece. It is important that Albanians of Macedonia do not stand in Greek line to vanish from earth face the name of Macedonia.

                              Originally posted by SoM

                              the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia. Your people do not have the right to negotiate on Macedonia's name.
                              For long time as Republic of Macedonia is state of all its citizens (despite of their nationality), all ethnic groups have their right to protect Macedonia. If my people have no right to negotiate on Macedonia's name, then where the hell you get the right to negotiate Macedonia's name? For what reason you dare to negotiate Macedonia's name? It is really disaster to sell our house's name (I mean house of all ethnic groups of Macedonia) in supermarket only because Greece wish so!!! Macedonia's name is something that cannot be negotiated! Is it hard to understand such a simple thing?!

                              Originally posted by SoM

                              What are you talking about? What heresy? I asked you to prove your assertion with some evidence, because there was talk in the past that Kosovo may not recognise Macedonia by its official name.
                              Calm down SoM! I understand that in past there were many misunderstandings but now there is no room to be worried about Macedonia's constitutional name by Kosova's side.

                              Originally posted by SoM

                              Both can only be considered as a lesser evil than Greece and Bulgaria.
                              I'd like to cite something from Sergio Leone's movie:

                              "Tut, tut. Such ingratitude after all the times I saved your life."

                              When Greece expelled thousands of Aegean Macedonians, Albania open its doors to those refugees, gave them lands, houses, etc. Albania state during Enver Hoxha's rule condemn fascist campaigns of Greece against native people of Aegean Macedonia.

                              Macedonians of Albania are an officially recognized ethnic minority in Albania[3][4]. In the 1989 census, 4,697[5] people declared themselves Macedonian. The condition of the Macedonian population living in the Prespa area is described in positive terms and particular praise is given since all the villages of the area have classes in their mother tongue. [6] .[7]

                              Minority Rights in Albania, page 3 - Albanian Helsinki Committee, September 1999
                              There is a general high school in Liqenas, one eight-year school in Dolna Gorica and six elementary schools in Djellas, Lajthize, Zaroshke, Gorna Gorica, Kallamas and Globočani. There are eight-year schools at the two biggest villages of the commune, Liqenas and Gorice e Madhe, where 20 percent of the texts are held at the mother tongue language. At the centre of the commune there is a high school as well. The history of the Macedonian people is a special subject at the school. All minority schools have twin partnerships with counterparts in Macedonia.[13] All the teaching personnel is local and with the proper education.[14]
                              Now I would ask you: Why Macedonia do not permit Albanians to have their schools in Veles, Ohrid and Monastir?

                              Originally posted by SoM

                              Do you want to compare this with the ethnic Albanian terrorists' desecration of Macedonian bodies, and their glorification of that act?
                              You're trying to maximize Macedonian victims and simultaneously to minimize Albanian victims! Why all foreign sources makes known that most of victims in this war were Albanian civilians?

                              Originally posted by SoM

                              What you have said is absolutely pathetic, and I am troubled by the fact that a 'moderate' like you would speak like this
                              Anti-Albanian position of many Macedonians goes in favour of Greece because Greece is attempting to make enmity between Macedonians and Albanians. Don't forget that it is your fault (I mean of Macedonian side) for everything that may happen in future since you must understand that Macedonia's danger is not in Albanians but in Greece.
                              Last edited by Epirot; 08-13-2010, 05:09 PM.
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                              Comment

                              • Epirot
                                Member
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 399

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                                He is no moderate, not by a long shot.

                                He is an extremist of the most dangerous kind in every sense of the word, attempting to shroud his racist, extremist and secessionist views with a diplomatic double-speak. He has been unsuccessful in his endeavour here.
                                How do you know that I am not moderate when we never chatted before in any thread in MTO? Have you telepathic skills?

                                You're trying to make a trial of me here in forum...and you dare to judge me as extremist, racist? What's your problem buddy?
                                You have not not a clue who I am...so everything you guess is just a dirty speculation.

                                Racist!? And you base this accuse on what? I never have been racist toward Macedonian people. Actually I do not agree in general with Macedonian nationalistic official policy but this does not lead me to hate Macedonians as a people. Allow me to use a leftist terminology: 'Political class cannot serve as index of a people'.

                                I would like to hear from TrueMacedonian his opinion if I am racist? I appeared for some time in 'Maknews' forum with 'Arvanit' as a nickname and I did support with many accounts existence of Macedonians as a distinct people during XIX century:



                                One hundred and ten and more (110+) years ago, the Albanians were largely known as the Ottoman vassals, doing the dirty work of the Ottomans, raiding, razing and pillaging many Macedonian villages, killing many Macedonians.
                                Don't gibberish more! Do you understand that you make sick everybody who reads your comment, don't you?
                                Every people in Balkans were for 5 centuries vassals of Ottomans. Every people in Balkans corroborated with them with no exception. Take aside your nationalistic behavior that your side was 'angle' and others were nothing more nothing less than a devils. Albanians were enemies of Ottomans and our history is full of struggles, uprisings and revolts against Ottomans. Albanians participated and did their best in struggles of their neighbors against Ottomans:

                                1) Albanians sided with Serbs during First Serbian Uprising in beginning of XIX century against Ottomans!

                                2) Albanians fought for Romanian autonomy.

                                3) Albanians were the greatest soldiers of 'Revolution Wars' in today what is called wrongly Greece

                                4) Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krusheva's Uprising!
                                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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