The Albanians of Macedonia

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  • Epirot
    Member
    • Mar 2010
    • 399

    #16
    I wonder why some of you pays attention to some obsolete and out-dated hypothesis of XIX century about "Caucasian Origin" of the Albanians. Don't you know that such hypothesis is rejected by all historians, do you?



    Do you realize that this absurd hypothesis is just a wishful thinking, do not you?
    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      #17
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3810

        #18
        Here's something already posted elsewhere -


        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3810

          #19
          Another source as to the Albanian settlements in Macedonia;

          Here is the essence of Pejcinovich arguement as to why a Christian in northwestern Macedonia in the early 19th century should continue to cling to his Christian faith in this increasingly Islamic region, as new Moslem settlers continued to arrive from independent Serbia. In that time and place the Christian faith conferred second-class citizenship and a lack of full protection of property and person under the law.
          'The 19th Century Macedonian Awakening' by Michael Seraphinoff, page 46
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            #20
            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
            I wonder why some of you pays attention to some obsolete and out-dated hypothesis of XIX century about "Caucasian Origin" of the Albanians. Don't you know that such hypothesis is rejected by all historians, do you?



            Do you realize that this absurd hypothesis is just a wishful thinking, do not you?
            I seriously doubt you have read the book you selectively present:



            Albanian identities: myth and history By Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer

            Don't further embarrass yourself.
            "... a pioneering effort in English-language studies on Albania." --Nicholas C. Pano Albanian history is permeated by myths and mythical narratives that often serve political purposes, from the depiction of the legendary "founder of the nation," Skanderbeg, to the exploits of the KLA in the recent Kosovo War. The essays in Albanian Identities, by a multinational, multidisciplinary team of scholars and non-academic specialists, deconstruct prevalent political or historiographical myths about Albania's past and present, bringing to light the ways in which Albanian myths have served to justify and direct violence, buttress political power, and foster internal cohesion. Albanian Identities demonstrates the power of myths to this day, as they underpin political and social processes in crisis-ridden, post-totalitarian Albania.


            more on "Albanian myths":




            And the Caucasian theory of Albanian origin is only further confirmed, based not on the 19th century autors but 21th century available sources such as internet and digitalized archive documentation which makes the researching much easier even for a amateur.
            Last edited by Bratot; 08-20-2010, 03:10 PM.
            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              #21
              Originally posted by Epirot View Post
              The massive expelling of Albanians during early years of Tito regime was a true occasion not a myth as you blatantly claim.

              I don't wish to be involved in same argument again. You can read our previous conversation with other Albanian if you like;





              And the article you linked has numerous but same fallacies as the other Albanian guy`s quotes;

              It was interested to use the Albanians in its war against Curds, settling them on their border.
              First of all, none of Kosovar or Macedonian immigrants has been settled to eastern Anatolia. Also Turkey is a democratic country, so anyone can live wherever they liked to.

              Secondly, there wasn't any Kurdish tension in Turkey before 1985 but your article talks about the year of 1953 but it mentions about a "war" between Kurds and Turks!!??? What war?? in 1953??? Kurdish PKK did their first terrorist attack at 1985. Kurds wasn't more than %5 of turkey`s total population in 1950s and certainly there wasn't any "war".

              Rest of the article again talks about the expulsions but blatantly claims that everyone who has been involved with this was Albanian. If that was the case then answer these questions please;

              • If around 135.000 Albanians expelled to Turkey between 1944 to 1966 then explain us how come Turkish population declined from 210.000 to 108.000 while Albanian population increased from 160.000 to 280.000? How come Albanians maintained this enormous population growth(nearly doubles) in Macedonia while 135.000 of them has already been sent to Turkey?

              • If only the Albanians expelled to Turkey and if there was an agreement between Turkey and Tito, then tell me why 7-8 Turkish people in Macedonia has been hanged, about 70-80 Turks has been jailed and Turkish newspapers and magazines has been banned before the expulsion began? IF there was an agreement between the governments already, then what was that fuss about? AND if Albanians was going to be expelled, then why the Turks has been punished instead?





              You got it wrong. Based on what you claim that there was a strong presence in Kosova 60 years ago?
              Based on 500+ year Turkish regime and Turkish presence in Kosovo. Isn't that enough? I ask you the same question then; Based on what you claim that there was only Albanian muslims in Kosovo?





              You are wrong again! The mosques in Macedonia aren't at all in hands of Albanians because not all Muslims in Macedonia are Albanian, are not they? Two of my friends from Zhitosha (now I don't know to which municipality belongs) who are Albanian by descent in the last census were declared as Turks because some Turkish organization makes possible to them to study in Turkey and to benefit financially them.
              Turkish people living in Macedonia doesn't say so. Whenever i read Turkish Macedonian forums or blogs, they keep yelling about the Albanian dominance in the mosques and they cant even go to the mosques at fridays anymore because pro-wahabbi Albanian imams keeps swearing at Turkey and Turkish regime in their preaches because of secular rules here. The same concern of Albanian domination is also being voiced by the associations too. They request help about this from Turkish politicians.



              P. S: It`s even stupid to argue about this cuz Tito`s regime wasn't like centuries ago. I am sure the older people in Macedonia would tell you about who has been expelled after 1950. Albanians or the Turks at most.

              According to the survey done by Turkish government after these immigrants came to Turkey; %47 of them said that their mothertongue is Turkish, about %19 reports as Albanian, %34 Macedonian. So, we can say that only %19 of them was Albanian but %34 of them was Torbesh people. This %19 also fits with the cencus results since if 135.000 Albanians would be expelled to Turkey in that period, there was no way in hell you could double your population in Macedonia at the same period of time. Also we can clearly see the major decline of Turkish population for the same period.
              Last edited by Onur; 08-20-2010, 03:56 PM.

              Comment

              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                #22
                The repeated mistake by most of members here consists in erasing the national identity of 'Christians' which were submitted by Albanian Muslim 'pashas'. I do not doubt that some time some Albanian leaders that got islamized benefited some advantages over their Christian brethren. Those Christian peasants who most of you wrongly guess to be Macedonian, were nothing else but Albanian Christians who were submitted to their Muslim brethren.
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                • Epirot
                  Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 399

                  #23
                  I shall add a couple of ethnographic maps that provide Albanians as a majority in Western zones of todays Macedonia!



                  Notice an Albanian enclave in south of Veria!
                  IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                  Comment

                  • Epirot
                    Member
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 399

                    #24
                    Whilst, this map shows boundaries of Albania further in east:

                    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                    Comment

                    • Epirot
                      Member
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 399

                      #25
                      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                      Comment

                      • Epirot
                        Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 399

                        #26
                        Again Albanian presence predominate in western side of Macedonia:



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                        IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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                        • sf.
                          Member
                          • Jan 2010
                          • 387

                          #27
                          You make no mention of the dates of the maps nor the authors. When you present them as a credible source (ie as fact), you accept the totality of their provided information. This means that you accept that Macedonia was populated by Bulgarians instead of Macedonians. And then, in the guise of presenting evidence, you have posted/spammed with several maps that are hardly different to each other. Your actions are transparent and disrespectful.

                          Admins, over to you.
                          Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #28
                            He is posting several idiotic maps of projected eastern Europe according to great powers, while the thread clearly asks for a proof predates Ottoman Empire era. These maps has been created just for manipulation by the great powers(most of this BS became reality after WW-1 tough!). As you can see, there was only "Bulgaren" and "Greichen" according to them and it`s funny that in those days, they were trying to degenerate Magyars and Finns too by putting them under the category of Uralic-Altaic Mongolen races together with the "Osmanen"?!!(Turks). Then after WW-2, they decided to embrace formerly "Mongolen"(according to them) Hungarians into their European idea and then they created the separate Uralic theory for the first time, so the Hungarians became the member of "beautiful" Aryan race like them in next day. Therefore, the one and only "Mongolen" race left in EU is my ethnicity, the "Osmanen", sigh...


                            P. S: Besides, Epirot posted an article about the theory of "Albanian expulsion to Turkey" but he dodges my open questions in my previous post above like the other Albanian guy did b4.
                            Last edited by Onur; 08-21-2010, 04:52 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #29
                              He doesn't have to mention any of the 'autors', it's enough we follow the sources.

                              Austrian maps + Bulgarian propaganda site with selected maps.

                              The date is around 18-19 century when Western powers tended to greater their influence on Balkans and to use the local inhabitants.

                              There are plenty of maps depicting controversies and contradictions in relation to the interest of the purchase. Please notice there is no Albanians in Greece's Peloponesus which is an contradition to all other sources. It's funny how Epirot chose to manipulate with matherials depending on what he tries to support, using these maps to provide claims about Albanian claims in Macedonia but surely will not use this map to support the other claim of the Albanian presence in Greece since doesn't suit to him at all.

                              But even with these maps Epirot cannot prove the 'authochtonous' place of Albanians in Macedonia,instead of recent arrivals after the 17th century.

                              The census after the WWII clearly pointed out the number of present Albanian population in Macedonia.

                              Btw.. do I have to show the sources mentioning Albania as Macedonian land and Albanian cities as Macedonian?

                              The point is already achieved, Albanians cannot support their claims and their national ideology is founded only on myths.
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

                              • Epirot
                                Member
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 399

                                #30
                                Originally posted by sf. View Post
                                You make no mention of the dates of the maps nor the authors. When you present them as a credible source (ie as fact), you accept the totality of their provided information. This means that you accept that Macedonia was populated by Bulgarians instead of Macedonians. And then, in the guise of presenting evidence, you have posted/spammed with several maps that are hardly different to each other. Your actions are transparent and disrespectful.

                                Admins, over to you.
                                Sorry I forgot to add below each map its author! I took most of them from the following source:
                                How to Make a Website with free web hosting services & cheap web hosting for ecommerce & small business hosting. Create & Make a Free Website with Affordable web hosting provider free website promotion tools & web stats. Free Website Builder, Templates, & Best Free Web Hosting. How to Create a Website


                                AND of course I do not support that Macedonia was populated by Bulgarians. These "Bulgarians" were nothing more than Christian Macedonians who belongs to Bulgarian Exarchate.
                                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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