Deconstruction of the term Bulgar/B'lgar/Bugar/Voulgar!

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  • makedonin
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1668

    #16
    Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
    nice Makedonin, but are there any linguistic references for what Bugar could mean in our language??
    Bugar is a loan word. It is Vulgar, exactly as described in True Macedonian post.

    It meant the common hard working population, which stood oposed in contrast to the Merchant and Governing class i.e. Turks and Greeks.

    The bulk of the Vlach were in deed Shepherds, and not every each of them called them Armin...

    For examle, Albanians are known as Vlachs cause they as well as the Armin were shepherds.

    Vlah's in Greek Βλαχοι in deed means shepherd.

    As for Vulgar and Vulgus I have already explained.

    PS.

    TM nice post..
    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #17
      Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
      I don't know if this helps but here goes.





      So according to the text above;

      1) Turk meant government official.
      2) 'greek' meant merchants
      3) Bulgar meant peasant.
      4) Vlach meant shepard.

      The balkans is a strange place. The only place where religion earns you a name like 'greek' or your social status earns you a name like 'bulgarian'.
      this is exactly what I am looking for, could we find the source from the above book, the one from 1907.
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #18
        Originally posted by makedonin View Post
        Bugar is a loan word. It is Vulgar, exactly as described in True Macedonian post.

        It meant the common hard working population, which stood oposed in contrast to the Merchant and Governing class i.e. Turks and Greeks.

        The bulk of the Vlach were in deed Shepherds, and not every each of them called them Armin...

        For examle, Albanians are known as Vlachs cause they as well as the Armin were shepherds.

        Vlah's in Greek Βλαχοι in deed means shepherd.

        As for Vulgar and Vulgus I have already explained.

        PS.

        TM nice post..
        thank you Makedonin, good observation, I have also read that "Vlach" is applied to almost anyone that was a shepherd in Greece.
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3810

          #19
          Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
          this is exactly what I am looking for, could we find the source from the above book, the one from 1907.

          Jovan Cvijic's text was originally written in Serbian. I'm having difficulty locating it online.
          Many bulgars say that he lied about the Macedonians in order to appropriate them into "south serbia". However this is false because Dr.Cvijic recognised a seperate Macedonian ethnicity alongside Serbian and Bulgarian as well as a serperate Macedonian language.Could it be that he was a rare honest scholar in the balkans?
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • Daskalot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 4345

            #20
            Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
            Jovan Cvijic's text was originally written in Serbian. I'm having difficulty locating it online.
            Many bulgars say that he lied about the Macedonians in order to appropriate them into "south serbia". However this is false because Dr.Cvijic recognised a seperate Macedonian ethnicity alongside Serbian and Bulgarian as well as a serperate Macedonian language.Could it be that he was a rare honest scholar in the balkans?
            I will dig into this TM, I have some resources to check up.
            Macedonian Truth Organisation

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13669

              #21
              The Greeks and Bulgars use people like Cvijic and Novakovich against the Macedonians, ignoring the fact that people like Pulevski long before advocated for the autonomy of the Macedonian people and identity.

              Bulgars say that the Serbs supported the Macedonians for the purpose of distancing them from the Bulgars, with the ultimate goal of absorbing them into the Serbian nation. I am not sure if Novakovich or Cvijic state exactly that, but it would be intersting to read more about what they did and their intentions.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13669

                #22
                Here is a little chronology to put things into perspective as to what exactly was meant by the use of the 'Bulgar' terms through various periods in history.

                Roman Times: Vulgar means the common mass, rough, peasants, for example, the 'vulgar crowd'.

                7th Century: After the tribes of Asparuk settled in Thrace, the term 'Bulgar' comes to represent the Turkic ruling class bearing that same name as a tribal/national description.

                9th Century: At the time of Boris, 'Bulgar' became an umbrella term for the Slavic-speaking people in most of the Balkans, as Boris himself did away (instead promoting Christianity and Slavic) with the remaining remnant Turkic Bulgars and their quest to retain the Turkic pagan identity. It is from such a background of general and generic description that the identity of Samuel's realm came to be, where by that time the Turkic Bulgar element was long gone and all that was left of those who brought the name with them was the actual name itself.

                11th Century: 'Bulgaria' was used to describe an East Roman Theme consisting of the majority of Macedonia and Serbia (excluding the regions of the Turkic Bulgar kingdom) with Skopje as its capital. However, the term 'Bulgar(ian)' often retained its generic purpose of lumping most of the Slavic-speaking people in the Balkans in one group. This may also be a reason why the terms 'Bulgar' and 'Vulgar' were identified in a similar manner, for the Slavic-speaking people in the Balkans were in fact the overwhelming majority and mass in the region.

                Ottoman Empire: While there are several sources that distinguish between Macedonians, Serbs, Bulgars, etc, before, during and in subsequent centuries, this generic use of 'Bulgar' continued to be the case even into the Ottoman Empire, from where it developed an added meaning of a lowly peasant as opposed to a 'Greek' who was a merchant and/or upper class type. It is from there that the people of upper Thrace began to use the 'Bulgar' term as a national descriptor in the modern sense.


                Give us some thoughts and suggestions on what should be changed or added to the above. After we do this, we need to start gathering and consolidating the sources together.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  #23
                  This term Bulgar was caried by the Patriarchists ("Greeks") during the Ottman times. Misirkov explains it good:

                  Ниiе видофме во грците дуовни господари и верцки началници. Ниiе бефме и кон ниф, исто така принизени, као и кон турците. Грците со црквата не експлоатираа нас и сакаа да извршат под турцкото владичество тоа, шчо не можаа до него. За да не претопат нас, они избегуваа да не вел'ат со народното име.

                  Они ни кажуваа, да сме биле ниiе рисiани, и ниiе тврдефме:
                  абре брате, рисiани сме, ами шчо сме! Кога ке се расрдеа на нас, и ке не наречеа тврдоглаи бугари, ниiе пак ке речефме: е пак така си iет: вистина рисiани сме, ама не сме образуани, као грците! Нашите глаи не разбираат; ниiе сме бугари.

                  Со iеден збор во турцко време ниiе потврдуафме и се согласуафме со се, шчо ке ни кажеа турците и грците.

                  Но турците со тоа, шчо не нарекоа нас: раiати и г'аури, гледаа на нас као на л'уг'е, не од известна народност, а шчо сет во известен однос кон ниф, господарите и праоверните.

                  Во истата смисл'а употребуафме и ниiе, односуаiки кон себе, тиiе имиiн'а. Значит турците во нивната држаа не признаваа народности. Исто така не знаiефме за ниф и ниiе.

                  Грците исто така не разликуваа словенцките народности и сите словени, особено тоi дел од ниф, шчо им причини наi големи неприiатности и се наог'аше во турцко време под нивната опека, они го презираа и го велеа со презреното за ниф име „бугари".

                  Но тоа име искажуаше презреiн'ето на грците, а не и достоинства на бугарите, затоа се сопроводуаше со зборот тврдоглав или „хондрокефалос".

                  Taken from: http://www.misirkov.org/sostauala.htm
                  translation:

                  We saw in the greeks spiritual masters and religious leaders. We had the same attitude towards them as we had towards the Turks. The greeks were exploiting us in the church and wanted under the Turk rullership to achieve their goal which they were not able to do before their rule. To assimilate us, they wre avoiding to call us with our national name.

                  They were calling us Risyani (Christians), and we approved: of course brother, we are Risyani, what else should we be! When they got angry at us, and they would call us stubborn Bulgarians: we would say: it is true, we are Risyani, but we are not that educated, as the greeks! Our heads do not understand; we are Bulgarians.

                  With other word, in Turkish time we were approving and agreeing with everything that the Turks and the Greeks were telling us.

                  But the Turks, with designating us: Rayati and Giuri, they did not see us as people of certain Nationality, but with relation to them as a masters and people of orthodox religion.

                  With same respect we were using this name's between us. That means, that the Turks were not recongnizing Nations in their country. So we were doing the same.

                  The Greeks did not distinguish between the slavic Nations and all the Slavic people, specially the part fo them, who was making the troubles for them during the Turkish rule and were under their Juristdiction (church), they were hating them and calling them with the name "Bulgarian" wich for tham was dispicable name.

                  This name was expressing the Greek detest, and not the honor of the bulgarians, that's why it's epithet was "hondrokefalos".

                  Translated from: http://www.misirkov.org/sostauala.htm
                  This explaination of Misirkov goes in line with the meaning of "Vulgar" as well as the Greek version Βουλγαρος which is pronounced Vulgaros.

                  Commoner, non educated, stupid peasant.

                  Hondrokefalos > stubborn
                  Vulgaros > commoner, peasant, uneducated.

                  As addition, read the meaning of Hellene on my Signature...
                  Last edited by makedonin; 02-28-2009, 04:06 PM.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • makedonin
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1668

                    #24
                    By the way, Misirkov states:

                    To assimilate us, they wre avoiding to call us with our national name.
                    This is the same taktics they employ even today.
                    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                    Comment

                    • Daskalot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 4345

                      #25
                      makedonin, thank you for your great contribution in this thread!

                      Bulgarians watch out, we will deconstruct you as we have done with the Greeks, soon we will also deconstruct the Serbs.......
                      Macedonian Truth Organisation

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3810

                        #26
                        Excellent work Makedonin. This explains alot of things that I hope many Macedonians who did not know before know now. Excellent stuff guys.
                        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                        Comment

                        • makedonin
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1668

                          #27
                          You are welcome guy's, but this is old stuff.

                          We just have to read what our people said before.... they knew it, it was in their time, before this stupid Nationalism have screwed the things up.
                          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #28
                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            We just have to read what our people said before.... they knew it, it was in their time, before this stupid Nationalism have screwed the things up.
                            Well put.

                            How ridiculous. One of the oldest nations (Macedonia) failed to grasp the modern pale imitation version of nationalism and has suffered ever since.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              #29
                              Here's something I think belongs in here.







                              Just like the front cover of the book states, "Know you not that the value of what is said depends not upon the speaker, but upon the listener?" (By the way this book was published in 1913 when propaganda in Macedonia was peaked.)
                              As you read through this book you realize that it is mired in racist ideological diatribe that the modern "greek" government has embedded in the population of not just modern "greece" but most of the world. Like the Nazis once said; If you tell a lie long and loud enough, especially a big lie, people will eventually start to believe it.

                              Here is a person who lived in Macedonia with the supposed "greeks", Vlachs, Albanians, Turks, and the supposed Bulgarian Macedonians. Well.....as illustrated in the pages I posted on here these people do not really speak Bulgarian but a Macedonian Dialect. And that the author, George Demetrius, states "we called them Bulgarian". Calling them this does not necessarily make them this.

                              Here's Krste Misirkov's statement at the time of why the Macedonians were labelled "bulgarians"-(Thanks Makedonin )

                              We saw in the greeks spiritual masters and religious leaders. We had the same attitude towards them as we had towards the Turks. The greeks were exploiting us in the church and wanted under the Turk rullership to achieve their goal which they were not able to do before their rule. To assimilate us, they were avoiding to call us with our national name.

                              They were calling us Risyani (Christians), and we approved: of course brother, we are Risyani, what else should we be! When they got angry at us, and they would call us stubborn Bulgarians: we would say: it is true, we are Risyani, but we are not that educated, as the greeks! Our heads do not understand; we are Bulgarians.

                              With other word, in Turkish time we were approving and agreeing with everything that the Turks and the Greeks were telling us.

                              But the Turks, with designating us: Rayati and Giuri, they did not see us as people of certain Nationality, but with relation to them as a masters and people of orthodox religion.

                              With same respect we were using this name's between us. That means, that the Turks were not recongnizing Nations in their country. So we were doing the same.

                              The Greeks did not distinguish between the slavic Nations and all the Slavic people, specially the part fo them, who was making the troubles for them during the Turkish rule and were under their Jurisdiction (church), they were hating them and calling them with the name "Bulgarian" wich for tham was dispicable name.

                              This name was expressing the Greek detest, and not the honor of the bulgarians, that's why it's epithet was "hondrokefalos".


                              Translated from: http://www.misirkov.org/sostauala.htm


                              The brainwashed George Demetrius, whatever his true background may be, displayed the contradiction relevant even in todays society.
                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                              Comment

                              • makedonin
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1668

                                #30
                                Well that is very interesting TM.

                                Confirmation of Misrikovs statement by wonna be "Greek".

                                Besides their awareness of the difference between the Macedonians and Bulgarians, they kept calling them Bulgarians. Derogative designation....

                                His statement even gains momentum, since he spoke spoke Turkish and the Macedonian "dialect" and he could tell the difference.

                                Good one TM
                                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                                Comment

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