Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Soldier of Macedon]

The ongoing protests and demonstrations in Ukraine which have resulted in civil unrest were commenced by pro-EU citizens. There is an explosive mix of violent protesters and heavy-handed security forces. Given the pro-EU west / pro-Russia east situation, there are some who fear that the country may be partitioned, divided along ideological lines, as the population is roughly split about 50 / 50 for each side. Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example. Perhaps the demonstrators are behaving this way because they feel more anti-Russian than pro-EU? I don't know. But the fact that there are extremists and fascists among the demonstrators doesn't do their cause much good:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...tion-1.1642760

As Ukraine’s opposition movement vows to continue its “revolution” with more protests and a general strike, an ultra- nationalist party is playing a leading role and former symbols of the far-right fringe are moving into the political mainstream.

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far...raine-23012014

When US Senator John McCain dined with Ukraine's opposition leaders in December, he shared a table and later a stage with the leader of the extreme far-right Svoboda party Oleh Tyahnybok. This is Oleh Tyahnybok, he has claimed a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" rule Ukraine and that "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state."

[Momce Makedonce]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The ongoing protests and demonstrations in Ukraine which have resulted in civil unrest were commenced by pro-EU citizens. There is an explosive mix of violent protesters and heavy-handed security forces. Given the pro-EU west / pro-Russia east situation, there are some who fear that the country may be partitioned, divided along ideological lines, as the population is roughly split about 50 / 50 for each side. Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example. Perhaps the demonstrators are behaving this way because they feel more anti-Russian than pro-EU? I don't know. But the fact that there are extremists and fascists among the demonstrators doesn't do their cause much good:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...tion-1.1642760

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far...raine-23012014

Did not know much about this when I first saw it. However at first it was good to see the Ukrainians fighting for self determination and distance from Russia. I thought it was something the Macedonians could look at and perhaps gain some sort of inspiration from...

However now it is just chaos. Violence,destroying buildings and starting fires is not the right way to protest.It will never get you anywhere and just result in more bitterness and resentment.

Sticky situation to be in considering the views of the population are split 50-50. I do have respect for Ukraine I heard they assisted Macedonia in the 2001 War with the Albanians if I am not mistaken?

[Sweet Sixteen]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example.

Ukraine's economical situation is not comparable to the former socialist countries of EU. The average wealth in Ukraine is less than half of Bulgaria's (the poorest of these countries) and almost 1/6th of Slovenia's.

Ukraine is basically at the level of Albania.

[Risto the Great]

Arguably similar to Macedonia. Give up the age old slavemaster or embrace the lure/appeal of the new Euro union. I think some solid leadership and diplomacy is needed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Countries in western Europe like the UK and France complain about the influx of people from EU countries in eastern Europe like Bulgaria and Romania. The population of Ukraine is much larger than either. I would question the sincerity of the EU and its willingness to absorb such a large area and population, as I would question their sincerity on a number of other matters. But at the moment, western diplomats are tripping over their own feet in their haste to capitalise on the situation. In some ways it resembles what has happened in some Arab-speaking countries in the last few years.

Originally Posted by Momce Makedonce

I do have respect for Ukraine I heard they assisted Macedonia in the 2001 War with the Albanians if I am not mistaken?

I believe so.

[Gocka]

Ukraine actually saved Macedonia from very dire circumstances. The gave Macedonia helicopters and a few tanks, if it wasn't for the helicopters the US backed terrorists would have attacked Skopje eventually. Our army had nothing and was struggling to fight off the terrorists who were heavily armed and had very sophisticated night vision gear.

As for the situation in Ukraine, its a mess. Its a situation where you have 2 sides both on completely different sides of the political spectrum, both with completely different views about what the countries future should be and there cant be a compromise, you can't be in the EU and not in the EU at the same time, what each side wants is in direct conflict with the other.

It eventually gets to a point (it already has) where both sides view each other as detrimental to the others future and prosperity. So what do you do? Most likely the country will split since neither side has a majority. Then there will be a war about who get what part and how much.

I foresee a grim future for Ukrainians which is sad because it is such a poor country, its always been controlled by Russia, it was decimated in WW2, they just have had nothing go there way in the last 100 years.

[Vangelovski]

Its interesting to note that ethnic Russians make up about 18 per cent of the population (8.1 million) - they mostly live in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I think these people make up the bulk of the "pro-Russian" faction.

SoM - I wouldn't take the media's word as to the supposed participation of the "ultra-nationalists". They were calling DPMNE supporters the same. I remember some stating the use of 'far right/nationalist symbols' in relation to the sonce! They'll use that term for anyone that even remotely shows support for their own country.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

SoM - I wouldn't take the media's word as to the supposed participation of the "ultra-nationalists". They were calling DPMNE supporters the same. I remember some stating the use of 'far right/nationalist symbols' in relation to the sonce! They'll use that term for anyone that even remotely shows support for their own country.

I know what you mean, but these guys are actually using fascist symbols. Check the pictures in the link.

Its interesting to note that ethnic Russians make up about 18 per cent of the population (8.1 million) - they mostly live in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I think these people make up the bulk of the "pro-Russian" faction.

There are also many ethnic Ukrainians who are opposed to the EU and lean more towards Russia. That doesn't mean they seek union with the latter, just that they don't see much benefit in joining the EU and would rather foster closer economic ties with Russia and others in their region.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I know what you mean, but these guys are actually using fascist symbols. Check the pictures in the link.

I read up some more on them. I wouldn't necessarily call them fascists. They have some racist policies which are counter-balanced by some very liberal minority group policies. They also seem to be confused about the type of economic system they support, claiming to be anti-communist but proposing some of the worst of the Soviet system as part of their party policy. I would say that overall their policies seem to be Ukrainians first, but I'd say that they are more confused than anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda...tical_party%29

[Momce Makedonce]

Originally Posted by Gocka

Ukraine actually saved Macedonia from very dire circumstances. The gave Macedonia helicopters and a few tanks, if it wasn't for the helicopters the US backed terrorists would have attacked Skopje eventually. Our army had nothing and was struggling to fight off the terrorists who were heavily armed and had very sophisticated night vision gear.

As for the situation in Ukraine, its a mess. Its a situation where you have 2 sides both on completely different sides of the political spectrum, both with completely different views about what the countries future should be and there cant be a compromise, you can't be in the EU and not in the EU at the same time, what each side wants is in direct conflict with the other.

It eventually gets to a point (it already has) where both sides view each other as detrimental to the others future and prosperity. So what do you do? Most likely the country will split since neither side has a majority. Then there will be a war about who get what part and how much.

I foresee a grim future for Ukrainians which is sad because it is such a poor country, its always been controlled by Russia, it was decimated in WW2, they just have had nothing go there way in the last 100 years.

Russia comes across as being the same as Serbia in the way that it wants as much control and influence over the other countries in their region. No doubt this Russian stance was copied by the Serbs.

I think a split would be the best option in regard to attempting to keep the peace. However there are positives and negatives for this and like you say it can end in more disputes.