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Old 02-19-2011, 03:29 AM   #501
George S.
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RTG From greece's point of view Slavophone,Bulgarophone,serbophone these are terminologies to apply to macedonians whom they considered to be less than they thought.When it talked about macedonians that's how they spoke of them,

Here is Report 1
Quote:
Balkan States – Report 1
December 11, 1944

Mr. Leeper to Mr. Eden
Athens 24th November, 1944

Sir,

I HAVE the honour to submit the following comments on Research Department paper of the 26th August, 1944, on the subject of Macedonia. (1)

2. The two formidable Macedonian problems in which Greece is concerned are: (a) that of Greek relations with the Slav world as represented by Serbia and Bulgaria, both of whom must be expected in the immediate future to be under strong Russian influence and to have Russian sympathy for their aspirations; and b) that of the surviving Bulgarophone minority in Western Macedonia.

3. The former problem turns chiefly on that of Serbian and Bulgarian access to the Aegean, the subject discussed in paragraphs 35-40 and 41-43 of the paper under reference. There is clearly no case (or handing over to Slav Powers any part of the North Aegean coast, which in 1940 had nowhere anything but an infinitesimal minority of Slav inhabitants. On the other hand, the strategic position of Greece here, even with Turkish backing, is very weak, vis-ŕ-vis the Slav world, so that even in her own interests it behooves Greece to come to terms with her northern neighbours. The only possible solution-however difficult in practice under present conditions-seems to be that referred to in paragraph 51, namely, a return to, and preferably an extension of, the system of free zones. A Serbian free zone at Salonica is not difficult, but a Bulgarian zone at Kavala, or even at the outlying Alexandrupolis, would probably be out of the question for a considerable period to come, in view of the passions aroused by the atrocious conduct of the Bulgarians in Northern Greece since 1941. It remains, nevertheless, a Greek no less than a Bulgarian interest that Bulgaria's desire for access to an Aegean port should be satisfied so far as possible; since otherwise Bulgaria's southward political aspiration, which are now largely artificial, will be kept alive by the real and continual irritation of an unsatisfied economic need. (How far this need might be met by the alternative of a free zone at Durazzo is a matter for separate study.) It may further be pointed out that the grant of free zones at her northern ports would, in fact, be of direct financial benefit to Greece herself through the revivifying influence of increased trade on the life of those ports in general and through the restoration of a natural degree of intercourse between these Greek ports and their Slav hinterland.

4. The problem of the Western Macedonian Bulgarophones, who are briefly mentioned in paragraph 7 of the paper, also remains serious and formidable, in spite of its limited dimensions. This minority, which extends through the region from Florina and Kastoria through Siatista to the plain of Yannitsa, has proved exceedingly unreliable during the war. Satisfactory data are not available, but it appears from events during the occupation that the dissatisfied minority must be considerably larger than is suggested by Greek census figures; and it is certain that successive Greek Governments have shirked facing the problem and have preferred to persuade even themselves that it did not exist. On the assumptions (1) that the policy of His Majesty’s Government is to treat Greece as the most important Balkan country from the point of view of British interests, and to support those elements in Greece which are most stably pro-British and (2) that Greece does not wish to belong to a Balkan Federation in which there would be a large Slav majority, it would appear to follow that Greece had better not contain any Slav minorities at all. And since the amputation of the Slav areas in Western Macedonia and their annexation to a Slav Federation is a practical impossibility and would also be economically disastrous for Greece. It would follow that, difficult as it may be, a home must be found for perhaps 120,000 Slav Macedonians north of the Greek frontiers of 1941.

5. I have sent copies of this dispatch to the Resident Minister at Caserta, to Mr. Houstoun-Boswall at Sofia and to Mr. Broad at Bari.

I have, &c. R. A. Leeper.

(1) See “Balkan States” print section, 26th August, Section 6.
Quote:
A Statement of the Bulgarian Idea of Unification as the Motive of Bulgarian Foreign and Internal Policy

April 5, 1944

No. 2782 (R-2585)
American Consulate General, Istanbul, Turkey

SUBJECT: A Statement of the Bulgarian Idea of Unification as the Motive of Bulgarian Foreign and Internal Policy

Sir:

I have the honor to present below a leading article from the Bulgarian newspaper ZORA of March 28, 1944, in which Mr. N. Kolarov, Editor of the Macedonian newspaper TSELOKUPNA BULGARIA, gives his view of the fundamental significance of the idea of unification in relation to Bulgarian foreign and internal policy.

The writer reviews the development of the movement in Bulgaria inspired by the idea of national unification in the nineteenth century, especially as it came to a head in the church settlement of 1870--which achieved the setting up of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Constantinople- and the Treaties of San Stefano and Berlin in 1878. He also refers to the long continued struggle that has been carried on in Bulgaria since the Treaty of San Stefano. Ethnographically the writer lays primary emphasis upon the areas of Bulgarian habitation as indicated in the delimitation of the territorial limits of the exarchate and the limits of the Treaty of San Stefano.

The writer sets forth no new ideas on this subject. The article merely emphasizes the fact that the idea of unification has been a powerful force working through the whole period of Bulgarian modern history and never more powerfully than today.

For the student of Balkan affairs the article is important in that it is another reminder of the fact that this powerful well organized movement and this profound sentiment must be taken fully into account in the settlement of the Balkan problem at the close of this war. As long as great numbers of Bulgarians live outside the frontiers of their country this struggle unification will go on, -for the Bulgarians are a determined and resourceful people in waging this kind of struggle. The aspiration for national self-determination and unification was in thorough accord with democratic sentiment in the nineteenth century, when it was born. The idea of unification was quite natural and commendable. The heroism of the people primarily concerned in carrying on the struggle, especially in Macedonia, for relief from the terrible conditions under which they lived was heroic. The literature which originated in the struggle is a fundamental part of Bulgarian literature and a part of the education of all the youth of country. Hence the ideal will not die.

The fatal element in connection with the whole movement, and that which has caused it to be wrecked in the twentieth century, was the unwise political methods adopted for its achievement, and the uncompromising attitude of those leaders in charge of national interests at critical moments, primarily in the spring and summer of 1913. In the bitter enmities and struggles between the Balkan states Bulgaria gave her enemies the opportunity of getting the drop on her, an opportunity which they were not slow to take advantage of; and so by her own lack of wisdom and political skill she wrecked the edifice which had been built up by so much suffering and bloodshed. The continuation in 1941 and since of this policy of political short-sightedness seems again destined to leave Bulgaria naked to her enemies; and to her natural enemies she has deliberately added Great Britain and the United states.

The writer of the article presented below, Mr. Kolarev, does not seem to be aware of the critical conditions which his country faces at this moment, for he writes of successful resistance to enemies without seeming to know that the forces gradually being built against his country are irresistible. He would do better, therefore, to devote his energies to devising by political skill some new alignment for his country that might save something from impending wreckage of Bulgaria's long cherished hopes.

The article shows how the most intransigent Bulgarians are still thinking and writing in this the eleventh of hour of the war in the Balkans. In free translation this article reads as follows:

In the Spirit of the Idea of Unification

By N. Kolarov

"Even for the first leaders of our renaissance, for whom the frontiers of Bulgaria were clearly defined, the unification idea, that is, the idea of the national unification of the Bulgarian nation was the fundamental and sacred aim of their efforts and of their epochal struggles. Later on in the political program of the revolutionary committee in Bucharest, the frontiers of the desired Bulgarian state were described with an accuracy which represents a true and understanding political view, especially when one bears in mind conditions at that time, conditions not only of patriotism crystal clear, but also showing an amazing ethnographical and historical knowledge.

Against all attempts to attack or deliver a deadly blow to the idea of unification the Bulgarian nation as reacted with iron determination, on which these attempts have ingloriously failed. The greatness of our church struggle rested precisely in the fact that it was an uncompromising struggle insofar as the territorial demarcation of the projected Bulgarian church (exarchate) was concerned. The southern frontiers proposed by the Patriarch of Constantinople and located on the crest of Stara Planina was turned down with an indication which made it clear, once for all, that the Bulgarian nation would no longer admit of its being challenged and insulted by such proposals. The further attempts
of Russian diplomacy and of the Sultan's government to satisfy the demands of our church further increased its territorial limits over which the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian church would extend, but which did not find favorable consideration in the Bulgarian nation. Our church leaders considered themselves satisfied only after the publication of the Sultan's decree, the tenth article of which opened for them the possibility, though under difficult conditions, of gathering all the territories with a Bulgarian population within the pale of the Bulgarian exarchate.

The peace treaty of San Stefano found the Bulgarian nation with an enhanced national and political consciousness and a fully crystallized idea of the meaning of unification. This is why this treaty, which was considered to be the crown of Bulgarian aspirations and the just reward of Bulgarian suffering and sacrifices, since it brought to life a just settlement which bad long been buried for five centuries, awakened an indescribable enthusiasm in the grateful nation from the Danube to the Aegean Sea and from the Black Sea to the Albanian Mountains. This is why the unfortunate news, which came a few months later with reference to the Congress of Berlin, found not only a painful echo but also the firm determination to take up a new struggle in the name of the idea of unification. This struggle in our then enslaves provinces is well known to all. It is known to us by its powerful romanticism, its sacred victims and its legendary heroism. In this struggle the indomitable sons of the provinces and the noble sons of the free fatherland took part side by side dying in a fraternal embrace. It was Bulgarian in spirit, in ideology and in aims.

The political elasticity with which the juridical principles, expressed in article twenty-three of the Treaty of Berlin, and then of the Treaty for the minorities, allowed and compelled the struggle to grow, because of the stipulations of the treaty and the international conditions at the time, from small to great achievements and gradually to attain the final Bulgarian solution of the Macedonian question, a fact which is used in vain today by some enemy countries, by ethnographical nihilists, for anti-Bulgarian purposes, for ideological combinations directed against them.

The final and great aim of the Macedonian liberation movement has been the union of Macedonia with the free kingdom. Similarly the underlying motive of Bulgarian foreign policy from the date of the Congress of Berlin until today, as well as the fundamental impulse which induced the Bulgarian soldier to die at the four corners of the Peninsula in the wars of liberation, has been the unification of all Bulgarian provinces in one Bulgarian state.

The idea of unification has also been the fundamental motive force of our national and political life. To the Balkan problem, insofar as we are concerned in it, we desire to give and shall give the solution which is in the spirit of our history, our wars of liberation, our national ideology. Any ideas which carry even the smallest sign or germ of separation or of particularism are equally alien to Bulgarians on both sides of the Osogovska Mountains. This is especially true today when we are living in a time of national and unitary states. We shall not seek our place in international life and establish the form of our state in accordance with the prescriptions of foreigners, the more so that these foreigners are known as our inexorable enemies. We shall build up our all Bulgarian state exclusively in the spirit of our idea of unification and Bulgaria will be a member of the international community ... a fully national and independent political entity." (ZORA -March 28, 1944.)

Respectfully yours, Burton M, Berry, American Consul General
To Department in original and hectograph

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Old 02-20-2011, 04:30 AM   #502
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Default Where did we lose our country? - Mistaken beliefs

Where did we lose our country? - Mistaken beliefs



By Risto Stefov

rstefov@hotmail.com

February 20, 2011



In all the interviews that I conducted and stories I heard, Macedonians were great at relating their accounts the way they experienced them but very few could explain why these things happened to them and who and what was responsible for these life changing experiences. Unfortunately we also have a tendency to write things down the way we see, hear and experience them without analyzing or giving much thought as to why things happen the way they do.



Another problem that I want to discuss with you is the tendency we have to react to things. We tend to react to external driven events more than we follow our own plans or designed strategies, if these even exist, regarding real or perceived issues that concern our national interests.



In this article I will look into why things are done the way they are done and what can we do to improve them.



One of the things that we should have done since Macedonia was illegally invaded, occupied and partitioned by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria in 1912, 1913, and later by Albania, was to call the four partitioned parts of Macedonia “occupied” because from a Macedonian perspective that is exactly what they were. For example we should have called all of Macedonia “occupied Macedonian territories”. We should have called “Aegean Macedonia”, “Greek occupied Macedonian territories”, “Vardar Macedonia”, “Serbian occupied Macedonian territories”, “Pirin Macedonia”, “Bulgarian occupied Macedonian territories” and “Mala Prespa” and “Golo Brdo” “Albanian occupied Macedonian territories”. After it was freed, the “Serbian occupied part of Macedonia” became “a free part of Macedonia” which we named the Republic of Macedonia. This reflects more accurately our situation and the status of our fatherland.



It is not too late however to do all this now because it still not only accurately reflects the reality of how we see our Macedonia but it will serve to inform the world that we as a people are not content with the situation in which we find ourselves. After 500 years of Ottoman rule the Balkans of the 19th century were still considered “occupied territories”, surely then after 100 years of Greek and Bulgarian occupation do we not have the right to call our fatherland occupied?



Since there never was a proper or satisfactory census done to count how many Macedonians live in Greece we should not be referring to them as “the Macedonian minority living in Greece” (Greek occupied Macedonia). We can’t make that assumption because in reality we don’t know how many Macedonians live there.



Clearly the vast majority of the population in Macedonia was Macedonian before Greece annexed these territories and clearly Greece willfully created the conditions that changed the demographics so why should we accept a fate imposed on us? If people invaded and occupied your home and they happened to be a larger number than your family would you accept the situation and surrender or would you fight to drive the intruders out? Would you call it their home because they were greater in number or your home because you are the owner?



Regardless of whether we are a majority or a minority in our own homeland, the fact is that land which belonged to the Macedonian people was forcibly taken away from them. In other words the Greeks stole those lands from the Macedonians. This is the picture Macedonians need to see, not only for themselves but for the rest of the world. Because this is the reality of the situation in which we find ourselves today; a reality which has existed since 1913!



We all know how Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria obtained those Macedonian lands and we know the lands do not belong to them. The part of Macedonia that was occupied by Serbia is now free and belongs to the Macedonian people. So should it not logically follow then that the parts occupied by Greece and Bulgaria should also be freed and should revert back to the Macedonian people? There are two ways we can look at this; complete independence just the way the Republic of Macedonia was freed, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon, but then no one knows how the future will turn out so shouldn’t we at least be thinking in that direction?



The other way we can free ourselves is for the Macedonian people to be given autonomy in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania so that they can govern themselves within the countries in which they live today. If there is will on the part of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania this option can be easily attained and will cost Greece, Bulgaria and Albania nothing. But just to be clear, I personally prefer the “independence” option because frankly I have had enough of the Greeks to last me several lifetimes!



Another issue that I have with Macedonians, concerns our mutual Macedonian national and ethnic identity. We tend to divide, isolate, separate and exclude parts of our genuine heritage, which I believe is not only wrong but we will some day come to regret.



I have always maintained a realistic view of who we are and that is we are the product of all the people that have ventured in Macedonia since the melt of the last ice age. There are also those who believe, and rightly so, that we as Macedonians are even older than that.



Regardless of our beliefs however, we are who we are but what we are not are “exclusively” the descendents of the ancient Macedonians, “exclusively” “Slavs”, or “exclusively” any single group that ventured into Macedonia over the years. I repeat, we are the product of all the people that set foot and settled in Macedonia and as such we have the right to their heritage, all of it.



So please let us not think that we are “only this or we are only that” and rob ourselves of our own heritage. Also let us not allow our enemies to dictate to us who and what we are and who and what we are not. Let us not allow our enemies to intimidate us into hating any part of our heritage because they made us believe it to be demeaning! We are who we are and there is nothing we can do to change that except to accept and embrace it because that is our heritage! It is us, all of it. So please before you begin criticizing me for what I have said, think about it!



I would go as far as saying that the Ancient Macedonian heritage is equally ours as is the so-called “Slav” heritage, whatever that might be. Also know that there are some things that are certain, for example when Christianity took hold in Europe Macedonia led the enlightenment. Along with the spreading of Christianity there was a revival of the Macedonian civilization, which not only brought Christianity to the Eastern European masses but gave them a written language which originated in Macedonia and was exclusively Macedonian. So why in the world should we not accept credit for these worldly deeds? Why should we exclude ourselves from the deeds of any of our Macedonian predecessors? Is this because we are intimidated by the Greeks calling us “Slavs” or “slavophones” or “Slavo-Macedonians”? We are all those things and more!



As a people I believe we need to rise above our definition by others; we only need to look into history to find who we are and believe me what we will find will surprise us!



If I may be so bold I would even venture to claim that the “Koine” language, which the modern Greeks today call “Greek”, and the “Thracian” language, which the Bulgarians today call “Bulgarian”, also fall into the category of Macedonian heritage. Why not? Think about it, the original Bulgarians were Tatars and spoke a Turkic language. Only later they adopted the Thracian language, parts of which the Macedonians were already speaking. The Bulgarians adopted the Thracian language after they settled in Thrace and were assimilated by the Thracian masses.



The Koine language is much more Alexander the Greats’ language than it is an Athenian language and was it not Alexander the Great, a Macedonian, who made it the international language of commerce throughout his empire? Where would this language have been today if it were not for Alexander the Great and his Macedonians who took this language out of the Balkans and carried it to all the corners of their vast empires? So why should Macedonians be robbed of yet another heritage to satisfy the Bulgarians who are not even indigenous to the Balkans or the Modern Greeks who only a couple of centuries ago were not even Greeks at all but Albanians and Vlachs whose ancestors immigrated to Greece during the 11th to the 13th centuries?



So realistically to whom do the “Koine” and “Thracian” languages belong, to the “Albanian-Vlach pretend Greeks”, to the “Turkic Tatars”, or to the indigenous Macedonians? What I am saying here could be proven with historical facts, all of it, which brings me to my next question! If all this can be proven, why hasn’t it been done by now? Why do we continuously take the defensive and react to issues being led by outsiders, like the “name negotiations”? Why haven’t we taken the offensive, formed a strategy, built cases and exposed the Greeks and Bulgarians for who they truly are?



Please indulge me to let you know of a rumour I heard in my travels. When the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia was about to gain its autonomy in Yugoslavia there was great concern in Great Britain as to what language the Macedonian people would adopt as their national language. Was it going to be the Koine language written on ancient relics all over Macedonia? After all Koine was Alexander’s language and Alexander was Macedonian so it would only have been appropriate if the Macedonians picked the Koine language as their Macedonian national language! The Greeks did it so why wouldn’t the Macedonians have done it too?



Why were the Brits worried about Macedonia adopting the Koine language? I can tell you what I think and I think if Macedonians adopted the Koine language it would have meant that the Macedonians would have laid claim to the entire Macedonian heritage from ancient times to today. This would have “exposed” the fake Greeks and Bulgarians and would have left them out in the cold with no heritage! This is why I believe Britain was worried.



Well am I the only one here who thinks we made a mistake for not choosing the Koine language as our national language? And this is precisely what I mean when I say we allow our enemies to intimidate us and then we willingly “give things up” that are rightfully ours!



If you have doubts about what I said above then let me ask you this! Does Koine, Alexander’s language, belong to the indigenous Macedonians who have lived in Macedonia for many millenniums or to the Modern Greeks who in reality are Albanians and Vlachs whose ancestors migrated to present day Greece during the 11th to the 13th century AD?



If you said “to the Macedonians” then ask yourself this question. Why then did we give up the Koine language and allow the Greeks to have it? So that today they can say “look we can speak ‘Greek’ therefore we are the descendents of the ancient Greeks?” Anyone can learn to speak “Greek”, even Alexander’s Koine in its purest form, but does that make them Alexander’s great, great grandchildren?



If we take a look at the conditions under which countries such as Greece and Bulgaria were formed, I picked those two countries because I am familiar with them, we will discover that we have a better foundation than they do. When it comes to our modern Macedonian state, our modern Macedonian ethnic and national identity and our modern Macedonian language we can say that they are all natural evolutions indigenous to Macedonia. They all have long historic roots and belong to the Macedonian people.



So not only do we have a right to defend our heritage, all of it, we have the right to stop others from expropriating it and from interfering in our affairs. In simple words, Greece has no grounds whatsoever to stand on when it comes to Macedonia, never mind interfere in Macedonian’s affairs and dictate conditions to the Macedonian people. This is something we all need to recognize!



If we took some time to look into our history and compare it to theirs we would not only validate what I am saying here to be true but we would discover that as an identity we stand on firmer ground than the Greeks. For example the Greeks as an identity are a modern, 19th century construct which has nothing to do with “ancient” or “Modern” Macedonia”! History can easily prove this! Having said that then what right does Greece have to make claims to Macedonia?



Macedonians on the other hand are indigenous to Macedonia and as such have historical claims to Macedonia. Again having said that then why are we allowing the Greeks to continue to interfere in our affairs?



If it were up to me I would even go a few steps further and publicly uncover “everything” the Greeks have done against the Macedonian people, including the many atrocities they committed and then demand justice be served!



Our long term strategy should be to “sort out history” and work towards recovering all that we have lost since 1913. We should be doing this regardless of whether we are capable today or not. I repeat, this should be our long term strategy!



Also let us not forget that Greece will never cease to torment us until it achieves its own goals and that is to bring us to our demise! This has been Greece’s plan all along ever since it robbed us of our territories and of our heritage in1912, 1913!



Before I end this part of the series I would like to see one more thing done and soon if possible. One of the mistakes, I believe as Macedonians, we made in the past was our inability or unwillingness to repatriate the Macedonian people driven out of their homeland because of war, torment and belligerence. We had the opportunity for repatriation after 1945 when the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia became an autonomous state inside the Yugoslav federation. At that time we had an opportunity to “bring everyone home” but for various reasons it did not work out. Had the Republic of Macedonia opened the doors to all Macedonians and invited them to come and live in Macedonia instead of migrating everywhere in the world, the Republic of Macedonia today would have had a lot more Macedonians, some estimate more than four million Macedonians. This however did not happen then but it is not too late for it to happen now!



The Republic of Macedonia even today has the potential and the capacity to bring together all Macedonians who would like to return to Macedonia. The Republic of Macedonia can do this by creating the right conditions for people to return; be it retired people who wish to spend the last years of their lives in their own homeland or young people who wish to settle there and have families and careers. For this to take place however, Macedonian authorities need to create the conditions, as well as promote the idea wherever Macedonians live.



To be continued.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:47 PM   #503
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Quote:
If I may be so bold I would even venture to claim that the “Koine” language, which the modern Greeks today call “Greek”, and the “Thracian” language, which the Bulgarians today call “Bulgarian”, also fall into the category of Macedonian heritage. Why not? Think about it,
You should think about it...mmm...theta.

Quote:
The Koine language is much more Alexander the Greats’ language than it is an Athenian language and was it not Alexander the Great, a Macedonian, who made it the international language of commerce throughout his empire? Where would this language have been today if it were not for Alexander the Great and his Macedonians who took this language out of the Balkans and carried it to all the corners of their vast empires?
How wide spread was it prior to him spreading it.

Quote:
So realistically to whom do the “Koine” and “Thracian” languages belong, to the “Albanian-Vlach pretend Greeks”, to the “Turkic Tatars”, or to the indigenous Macedonians?
Is there another part to this equation…are there not posts on this site that say supposedly only the Macedonian nobility and upper class learned Greek while the common Macedonian didn’t understand Greek then if the common Macedonian spoke koin what language did the nobility learn.

Quote:
What I am saying here could be proven with historical facts, all of it, which brings me to my next question! If all this can be proven, why hasn’t it been done by now?
Excellent question. Do you have an equally excellent answer. I would like it to be proven too…I think it would go a long way towards the name negotiations.

Quote:
Please indulge me to let you know of a rumour I heard in my travels. When the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia was about to gain its autonomy in Yugoslavia there was great concern in Great Britain as to what language the Macedonian people would adopt as their national language. Was it going to be the Koine language written on ancient relics all over Macedonia? After all Koine was Alexander’s language and Alexander was Macedonian so it would only have been appropriate if the Macedonians picked the Koine language as their Macedonian national language!
Quote:
Well am I the only one here who thinks we made a mistake for not choosing the Koine language as our national language?
You should stick to reality and common knowledge and not indulge in rumors that could not have merit as it diminishes your credibility. Bar the Aegean Macedonian refugees who decided to live in titos Macedonia and their children whom they continued to teach Greek privately and the odd other person knew Greek. The majority of Macedonians do not understand Greek so why would they choose it as their official state language…so they don’t know how to fill out any government form. Besides not knowing koin most Macedonians would revolt at such a proposition seeing it as a forced conversion so the chances of this even being considered and seriously enough that the British would be nervous is nonsensical and hence unbelievable.

Quote:
If you have doubts about what I said above then let me ask you this! Does Koine, Alexander’s language, belong to the indigenous Macedonians who have lived in Macedonia for many millenniums or to the Modern Greeks who in reality are Albanians and Vlachs whose ancestors migrated to present day Greece during the 11th to the 13th century AD?
We know the modern Greeks as Albanian Vlachs Roma ect acquired the koin language but if the Macedonians used the koin language because as far back as anyone in family can remember no one knew how to speak koin nor did they know anyone who did so are we not really Macedonians. I have heard in the past some Aegean Macedonians say that there is some border somewhere where Macedonia proper ends and that northern tip in Serbia Macedonians speak funny so should I buy a Sajkaca or my great grandfather knew some Turkish because of the Ottoman empire so should I buy a Fez or maybe I should just make one out of a newspaper.

Quote:
Our long term strategy should be to “sort out history” and work towards recovering all that we have lost since 1913. We should be doing this regardless of whether we are capable today or not. I repeat, this should be our long term strategy!
I’ve been saying for a long time that we should sort out our history and recovering all that Macedonians have lost but I thought Macedonian history went beyond 1913 or is this the only history that concerns you.

Quote:
Also let us not forget that Greece will never cease to torment us until it achieves its own goals and that is to bring us to our demise!
Hence my point in sorting out our history but as a matter of urgency as it goes a long way towards the name dispute or do you think the name negotiation will go on for another 100 years or more so it can sit on the backburner while those who live through our history and have something to tell pass away and any document they may have had to share become lost.

Quote:
One of the mistakes, I believe as Macedonians, we made in the past was our inability or unwillingness to repatriate the Macedonian people driven out of their homeland because of war, torment and belligerence.
A mistake is only when you have a say in a decision. Tito is no friend of the Macedonians tito never
wanted too many Macedonians in Yugoslavia…maybe because of the skeletons in the closet.

Quote:
We had the opportunity for repatriation after 1945 when the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia became an autonomous state inside the Yugoslav federation.
It was not as autonomous as you might think. It was created at the execution of Macedonian officers who refused to be subject to tito and wanted an independent Macedonia as to their original arrangement with tito and then the force battle of attrition for the Macedonian troops at the battle of Sren. Tito was no friend of the Macedonians.

Quote:
Had the Republic of Macedonia opened the doors to all Macedonians and invited them to come and live in Macedonia instead of migrating everywhere in the world, the Republic of Macedonia today would have had a lot more Macedonians,
Tito in keeping good with the west and Greece initially shut the border with orders to shoot anyone trying to cross. Helpless Macedonians caught on the other side of the border were massacred. Only when the mass murdering in Aegean Macedonia became too great and would be an absolute embarrassment for all concerned did tito open the border and accepted the refugees who were mainly women and children. To sanitize history he then aided the Aegean Macedonian refugees by building free apartment blocks which to this day bare the unofficial label the Aegean buildings or Aegean apartments and gave them jobs in preference to other Macedonians.

Tito is no friend of the Macedonians tito never wanted too many Macedonians in Yugoslavia…maybe because of the skeletons in the closet…that’s why few businesses were opened in Macedonia resulting in most of the population earning a living as poor farmers with the state buying their produce and feeding much of Yugoslavia and those few industries that were opened in Macedonia were the likes of metal sheltering and poisoning the city air or munitions factories like 11th October. Having created unfavorable conditions at home he made it easy for Macedonians to emigrate into the west where they dutifully sent back hard foreign currency which never made it past Belgrade as foreign currency to support poor relatives. A…foreign…cash cow is better then a bunch of peasants all turning to you looking for work.

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This however did not happen then but it is not too late for it to happen now!
Yes it is.

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The Republic of Macedonia even today has the potential and the capacity to bring together all Macedonians who would like to return to Macedonia. The Republic of Macedonia can do this by creating the right conditions for people to return;
With over thirty something percent unemployment rate and poor infrastructure Macedonia does not have the means to do this.

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be it retired people who wish to spend the last years of their lives in their own homeland
Most don’t. People of pension age went through the heartache of leaving mothers fathers and siblings and friends behind to start new lives in the west and don’t want to go through that again leaving children and grandchildren behind in the diaspora. Macedonians are not the cool type of grans who skype and would video conference to keep in touch with their children or grandchildren and even if they could learn the internet they wouldn’t want to.

Lets not just consider what they would be leaving behind but also what they would be going to. Many have not only lost their parents but also outlived most if not all of their siblings and nephews and nieces are not to thrilled in attending to their needs…kako majka sto se raduva so dete so izdrskani peleni…particularly realizing they will be progressively be able to do less for themselves. Struggling with upkeep and preparations for winter and bothering with freezing mornings ect. Like the saying goes people go south to Florida never north for their retirement.

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young people who wish to settle there and have families and careers.
With 30 something percent unemployment Macedonia already has a lot of young people doing just that. I don’t think the local Macedonians would be too thrilled at more young people from outside joining their queues as would the outsider looking at diving into a vast pool of ready unemployed.

Further with the lack of infrastructure many services are substandard…eg health education as well as other difficulties.

Those with young children to teenagers often find their kids don’t want to stay too long.

A little more realism would go a long way towards believability.

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Old 02-20-2011, 06:28 PM   #504
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Without going into some of the other issues, I agree with OziMak in this instance in that these theories about the Koine language that Stefov puts forward are completely baseless. I'm not sure how someone like Stefov could have come to such a conclusion that the Koine language was 'Macedonian'.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:35 PM   #505
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I think the Koine language was amplified by the Macedonians. It was a written language that preceded the Macedonians' arrival in the East.

To call it Macedonian is misleading.

It certainly would not have been the language the ancient Macedonians used when they did not want Hellenes to understand them.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:20 PM   #506
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Koine is a language based on Attic Greek with several foreign admixtures (mostly relevant to nouns), and it was developed during the Macedonian invasion of Asia and afterwards, not before. To call the Koine language 'Macedonian' is completely inaccurate. I don't know why Stefov is doing this, or where he is heading with it.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:54 PM   #507
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I'll try & get an answer on this.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:37 PM   #508
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Here's the answer guys:"
Zdravo George,



I am glad you asked this question. I received a lot of feedback from many Macedonians on the “Koine” issue and they deserve to know why I did this.



In my younger days a Macedonian activist living in Greece, who by the way is still active to this day, told me that “to beat the Greeks you will have to think like a Greek”.
Risto Stefov



The article in question, as are many of my “editorial” or “rant” articles, is not only about “facts” and “truth”, it is about how far I can push the envelope and get away with it.



In researching our history through the eyes of diplomats and Governments I discovered a different view of the world which has mostly has “little” to do with “facts” and “truth” but a lot to do with holding power and getting re-elected.



Governments do what is “popular” with the majority of the people, and, at the diplomatic lever, they very rarely care about people’s “feelings”.



We Macedonians know that Greeks, who are not really Greeks, claim a lot of things that don’t belong to them and yet today they are still popular in the world, have a country, a glowing heritage and a history that stretches back to ancient times. What do we have? With all the “right” things we have done and the right steps we have taken, what dowe have?



Two thirds of our country is still occupied, after 100 years, and we can’t seem to even recognize that. Our enemies bad mouth our heritage and because of it, we reject it.



The “Koine” language, as I have said hundreds of times in my history articles, was the language of trade and commerce in the entire Mediterranean region which the Macedonians extended to Asia and Africa. At least this is what history tells us. It was used as a common language by the educated, business people and governments.



The question I attempted to pose, as I do in many of my “editorial articles”, given the current situation and the fact that Greece has laid claim to a lot of things that don’t belong to it, in contract, can we do the same thing? Obviously, judging from the criticism I received, we can’t!



Again than I must ask! What is it that we “CAN” do to get us moving in the right direction which is acceptable to Macedonians?



If you don’t ask, you will never know!



Say hi to the guys at MacedonianTruth for me. I would love to join the forum and debate but where am I going to find the time? My heart is with you.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:35 PM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto Stefov
The question I attempted to pose, as I do in many of my “editorial articles”, given the current situation and the fact that Greece has laid claim to a lot of things that don’t belong to it, in contract, can we do the same thing? Obviously, judging from the criticism I received, we can’t!
We don't need to lower ourselves by replicating the behaviour of our enemies.
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Again than I must ask! What is it that we “CAN” do to get us moving in the right direction which is acceptable to Macedonians?
There is still much work to be done, and I think it is more beneficial if we focus on claiming things that are actually significant from a Macedonian standpoint (in the context of Macedonian history), rather than claiming things we shouldn't, just because our neighbours have done the same.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:47 PM   #510
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Stefov makes a point.
Macedonians have never been good at "one upmanship". So this cannot be argued as something that has been done poorly before. I do agree that we need to be arguing from a righteous perspective, but let us not forget we are dealing with Greek peasants who throw Zeus or some other myth up at the most opportune of times to justify modern problems.
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