Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Phoenix]

...At a minimum we can say that both the US and Russia are meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign state that is on the verge of a civil war.

I think we're finally back on track from post #21 from BBS, after the 50 odd posts debating Vangelovski's Amish view of modern America...

[Big Bad Sven]

Supposedly a lot of Ukrainians in the east that are in the army and navy have defected to the Russian side. A lot of cities and areas are putting their hands up to be out of Ukrainian control as well.

Although the Russians reasons for interfering in Ukraine are just as shallow as the EU/USA's, they have some credibility at least. I can under stand the russians being upset when pro-russian or russians in ukraine are getting hurt, killed by neo-nazi's etc. They have the right to protect russian citizens outside of Russia and russian orthodox churches. I wish macedonia could do the same and be more aggressive in protecting its people and historic churches.

Ukraine can kiss Crimea goodbye because of the way they handled this. That is their punishment for overthrowing a government undemocratically and attempting to assassinate the president. They agreed to form a unity government to negotiate a settlement peacefully but instead listened to western aggressors and went with the coup d'etat option. Its just like what happened in Georgia, and just like in Georgia when the Ukranians ask for help against the Russians they will get nothing.

No matter what side of the fence you sit on, or what your views on Putin are, you got to give him credit. He managed to take the whole region, have the police, army and navy pledge allegience to the local authority without a shot being fired. He has also shown the world the risks of these so-called revolutions. You risk having your country torn apart and siding with the west these days is risky business. No wonder Brussels and Washington are outraged, their whole sphere of influence is being torn apart by Putin.

There is no way the russian part of Ukraine will ever accept Ukranian rule. At best it will be like kosovo in yugoslavia in the 80-90s, but i think it will turn out like what happened in Georgia, land going to Russia. I think the western ukranians know they cant win and wont be getting any support from the west.

Like i said, a lot of eastern european pip squeak nations that gave russia the middle finger when they entered NAT/EU will be shitting themselves. Because they know the pedophiles in Brussels are all talk and are a dying empire

[Big Bad Sven]

Russia Enlists Chinese Support on Ukraine Position.

MOSCOW, March 3 (RIA Novosti) – Russia says it has enlisted China’s support for its claim that the overthrow of the government in Ukraine last month was orchestrated by “external forces.”

The situation in Ukraine was discussed Monday at consultations in Moscow between Chinese deputy Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping and his Russian counterpart, Grigory Karasin.

“The Chinese side expressed understanding of Russia's analysis of reasons behind the deep political crisis in Ukraine and the role of external forces that acted to support Euromaidan,” Russia foreign ministry said, referring to the informal name of the uprising that culminated with the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych.

More than 90 people were killed – including dozens of protesters and more than a dozen policemen – during months of largely peaceful demonstrations that sporadically tipped over into violence.

Moscow has routinely blamed the United States and the European Union of lending the protest movement their support, while some lawmakers have claimed Western governments offered funding and training to demonstrators.

The Foreign Ministry said China blames Ukraine’s opposition for failing to comply with an EU-brokered agreement with Yanukovych on February 21 to end the months-long political standoff that had gripped the country.

That deal envisioned elections by the end of the year and reforms to the constitution. A Russian representative who oversaw the agreement refrained from signing it.

Opposition forces occupied parliament on February 22, as Yanukovych fled the capital for destination unknown, until finally surfacing in southern Russia around a week later.

Yanukovych has described his ouster as a coup and insists he remains the country’s legitimate head of state.

[Vangelovski]

I think we're finally back on track from post #21 from BBS, after the 50 odd posts debating Vangelovski's Amish view of modern America...

I don't know if its my amish view of modern America or your tin foil hat view of America...

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, you are an early USA democracy lover. Here is Abraham Lincoln's take on it:



I think he was right and the near future is here.

I haven't even said a word about democracy in this thread, but are you suggesting that you will redistribute your own personal wealth to make democracy stronger?

[Vangelovski]

Supposedly a lot of Ukrainians in the east that are in the army and navy have defected to the Russian side. A lot of cities and areas are putting their hands up to be out of Ukrainian control as well.

Although the Russians reasons for interfering in Ukraine are just as shallow as the EU/USA's, they have some credibility at least. I can under stand the russians being upset when pro-russian or russians in ukraine are getting hurt, killed by neo-nazi's etc. They have the right to protect russian citizens outside of Russia and russian orthodox churches. I wish macedonia could do the same and be more aggressive in protecting its people and historic churches.

Ukraine can kiss Crimea goodbye because of the way they handled this. That is their punishment for overthrowing a government undemocratically and attempting to assassinate the president. They agreed to form a unity government to negotiate a settlement peacefully but instead listened to western aggressors and went with the coup d'etat option. Its just like what happened in Georgia, and just like in Georgia when the Ukranians ask for help against the Russians they will get nothing.

No matter what side of the fence you sit on, or what your views on Putin are, you got to give him credit. He managed to take the whole region, have the police, army and navy pledge allegience to the local authority without a shot being fired. He has also shown the world the risks of these so-called revolutions. You risk having your country torn apart and siding with the west these days is risky business. No wonder Brussels and Washington are outraged, their whole sphere of influence is being torn apart by Putin.

There is no way the russian part of Ukraine will ever accept Ukranian rule. At best it will be like kosovo in yugoslavia in the 80-90s, but i think it will turn out like what happened in Georgia, land going to Russia. I think the western ukranians know they cant win and wont be getting any support from the west.

Like i said, a lot of eastern european pip squeak nations that gave russia the middle finger when they entered NAT/EU will be shitting themselves. Because they know the pedophiles in Brussels are all talk and are a dying empire

You do realise that the Russophile Ukrainians are very much like our own Srbomani and saying Ukraine should be invaded as punishment for supposedly treating them badly (of which I haven't really seen any widespread evidence) is very much similar to saying Macedonia should be invaded by Serbia as punishment for claims that its improper treatment of Srbomani factions in Macedonia...?

[Risto the Great]

I haven't even said a word about democracy in this thread, but are you suggesting that you will redistribute your own personal wealth to make democracy stronger?

You've assumed I believe in democracies. Fuck that, I want me a corporation!

[Vangelovski]

You've assumed I believe in democracies. Fuck that, I want me a corporation!

I forgot to tell you, the CEO of McDonald's came past earlier. He wants the MTO to stir up trouble in Macedonia - something about getting the current corrupt Bugaroman government out of power so that Bulgaria will have an excuse to invade Macedonia. Apparently McDonald's has some sort of special access to the Bulgarian market that Gruevski won't give them. We get free Big Macs for life as payment. Its all money and politics, you know. What do you say?

[Risto the Great]

I forgot to tell you, the CEO of McDonald's came past earlier. He wants the MTO to stir up trouble in Macedonia - something about getting the current corrupt Bugaroman government out of power so that Bulgaria will have an excuse to invade Macedonia. Apparently McDonald's has some sort of special access to the Bulgarian market that Gruevski won't give them. We get free Big Macs for life as payment. Its all money and politics, you know. What do you say?

I rang the CEO and said "call the USA" instead. They managed to convince the Macedonians to give their arses to the Albanians by offering to call Macedonia something as remarkable as Macedonia. So anything is possible.

I think if Macedonia had oil reserves and/or other more useful things, we could work something out though.

Terrible analogy btw.

[Vangelovski]

I rang the CEO and said "call the USA" instead. They managed to convince the Macedonians to give their arses to the Albanians by offering to call Macedonia something as remarkable as Macedonia. So anything is possible.

I think if Macedonia had oil reserves and/or other more useful things, we could work something out though.

Terrible analogy btw.

The analogy is perfect - multinational corporation orchestrates protests/riots, overthrows pro-neighbour leader, giving neighbour excuse to invade all for the benefit of said multinational.

[Risto the Great]

Has anyone said a multinational corporation is doing that in Ukraine?
I don't believe they have.

[Vangelovski]

Has anyone said a multinational corporation is doing that in Ukraine?
I don't believe they have.

You obviously haven't been following the posts very carefully...do I have to go through them and quote them all...its getting late?

[Risto the Great]

You might have to because I think most would agree that the thread is more about superpower interference. Not corporates.

[Vangelovski]

You might have to because I think most would agree that the thread is more about superpower interference. Not corporates.

It is about superpower interference, but it went into a side show about corporations - namely Gocka and Victor think that corporations control governments and governments orchestrated the protests in Ukraine to topple Yanukovich for the benefit of their corporate puppet masters who supposedly stand to make billions but that is yet to be demonstrated as the only examples provided would actually lose out in any conflict. At the end of the day, its all about money - like you said.

Anyway, it'll be a tomorrow job.

[Gocka]

Pretty surprising turn of events here in the US. What a difference a day makes.

Last night after all the talk here I thought I would check out the news to see whats being said officially by the US government.

Just a day ago the US was acting very sheepish, and the entire blame was being thrown on Russia for being the agressor.

Well last night to my big surprise most of flack for what is going on in Ukraine was being drawn by the US state department. They had senators, former generals, analysts, etc etc on to discuss why this is happeing. Almost all of them blamed the state department for being naive. Here is a breakdown of the points that were being made, the best ones were from a former US general.

-The overthrown in Ukraine was a coup, and the government in charge now is not a democratically elected government. This was not even debated by anyone.

-That the US gave support and helped to pull off the coup (no one elaborated on how). This was also not contested by anyone, and the wire tapped phone call that I posted was mentioned several times.

-That the US state department was naive or down right stupid to help orchestrate a coup against a pro Russian government in a country bordering Russia. One general actually said " What did they think was going to happen when they helped an armed coup overthrown the pro Russian government, did they think the Russians wouldn't find out that we were behind it, did they think they wouldn't mind. I mean what would we have done if Russia did something similar to us"

This was all over the prime news stations, CNN, FOX, NBC.

So despite our back and forth about whether the US was behind this or not, it is now being openly said that the US was behind this. No one in the US is even denying it anymore that the overthrow was a coup that it was orchestrated by the US with out the consultation of Russia or the EU.

Like I said this is starting to blow up in the state departments face because people in the US are saying now what? Many of the analysts were saying ok you helped overthrow the Yanukovich government which was corrupt but you did it through a coup, and now what, are you going to go to war with Russia?

The anchor on CNN even asked whether this makes the US look like a hypocrite, because we always push for democracy but now we got caught with our pants down orchestrating a military coup instead of helping to find a democratic solution.