Albanians in Greece

[osiris]

prolet i too have heard they were vlachs but she herself identifies as an albanian so thats that.

epirot do you speak greek and are you aware of the many slavic place names in albania.

[Epirot]

prolet i too have heard they were vlachs but she herself identifies as an albanian so thats that.

epirot do you speak greek and are you aware of the many slavic place names in albania.

No, I do not speak Greek but I can read Old Greek because I spent a lot of time to learn old Greek alphabet in order to read accounts of ancient writers about my past: Epirus.

I cannot say certainly if those names are really in ''Greek'' since we must not confuse Orthodox names with '''Greek''' ones.

[Epirot]

Epirot, What are your thoughts about Gjorgija Kastriot Skenderbeg?

What are your thoughts on Giorgi Kastriot? Do you have any doubt about his nationality?

Well Prolet & Risto...I have no doubt of his nationality since there are many evidences regarding him as an Albanian. Of course, there are some other sources who called Scanderbeg as Epirot or even as Macedonian but you know in that time was too fashionable using of ancient names due to influence of humanism.

The fact that Scanderbeg is regarded in world-wide historical community as an Albanian reject possibility of being of other nationality. At least, Scanderbeg identify himself as Albanian.

[Big Bad Sven]

Let straight things in order!
The League of Prizren wasn't attempt to create 'Great Albania'. The League of Prizren aimed to protect all Albanian lands from partition decided in Congress of Berlin. Saying that League of Prizren was attempt for Greater Albania is equal with saying that Kruesheva Struggle was aimed for Great Macedonia.

For the sake of debate, can you elaborate better what do you mean with 'Great Albania'? The 'Greater Albania' is nothing else but a fallacious term invented by Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece in order to hide their expansionist nature. It has Great Bulgaria because it encompassing non-Bulgarian lands like: Macedonia of Pirin and Rhodope Mountains - region of more than 900,000 Turks. Right! It has Great Serbia because it occupied itself non-Serbian land like Vojvodina (homeland of thousands of ethnic Hungarians), Sandjak (homeland of thousands of Bosniaks and Albanians), Presheva Valley (150,000 Albanians peopled there), Timoko Valley (50,000 Rumanians do live there). It has also Great Greece because all of its northern and eastern parts are in fact, non-greek lands occupied by military force (Epirus a.k.a.Chameria, Aegean Macedonia, Thrace, Aegean Islands, etc).

If you persist that it has Great Albania, then it has also Great Macedonia. How do you feel when '''Greeks''' accused you of irredentical behaviours in order to make 'Great Macedonia'.
Finally, 'Great Macedonia' or 'Great Albania' are fictive terms and we shouldn't waste our time by talking of fallacious terms, should we?

If Albanians do not celebrate anniversaries of Kruesheva Repuplic that does not mean that Albanians had not contribute in this struggle. Two years ago, I've a brief visit in Krusheva muzeums. There I saw many old photos of both Albanian and Macedonian fighters. Below of each picture were names of revolutionaries, and although they were in Cirilic alphabet I found many of them Albanian.

Greater Albania or “united albania”, “greater macedonia” or united Macedonia. What ever, its all subjective to who ever is saying it and what they mean buy it.

The positive spin of “united Albanians” sounds very rosy and cheerful the tosks and the crazy mountain men ghegs, but when it comes to Macedonians its bad news because the goals of the League of Prizren where to incorporate lots of Macedonian land and people into a single Albanian entity.
Strange that the map that the League of Prizren proposed and thought for is the exact same as the map of “greater Albania” – which is used by the KLA, NLA, certain Albanian politicians and the radical population of Albanians.

The map that the League of Prizren used e.g. “United Albanian lands”:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Albanski_vilajet.gif

The map of “greater Albania” used by the American-albanian diaspora group, and also used by KLA and NLA:

http://www.kosovo.net/aacllg.gif

It is very foolish to claim that Greater Albania is a “Serbian” myth when you have Albanian and Albanian Diaspora organisations, Albanian politicians, and Albanian Diaspora talk it up.


And finally, like I said Albanians seem to have forgotten about the Krusevo republic only until recently, now they are claiming that it was they who did the bulk of the fighting and organising, and that people like Pitu Guli where really “Albanians”.
If the Albanians where such important roles and heroes in the Krusevo uprising, then why aren’t there any famous known Albanian heroes in Macedonian, Bulgarian, or vlach stories. Even Albanians don’t know of any names or heroes from this event, yet apparently they played a “huge part” in it.

[Big Bad Sven]

Here I found something that may be interesting for the topic:



For further reading:

http://www.cybermacedonia.com/iliupris.html

So, even Macedonian sites recognize Albanian contribution on this glorious struggle...so attempts to deny Albanian contribution (like BBS did) are not fair!

Epirot what do you think of the following article from albania?


Without albanians, Krusevo Republic would have been forgotten.

Rexhat Nexhipi writes in his commentary that he has written about the Albanians' contribution to the Ilinden Uprising and the Krusevo Republic on a number of occasions, which is why this time he will only stress a few points about this issue. The Krusevo Republic was a result of the Ilinden Uprising in year 1903, which was prepared by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary OrganizationFor other uses of terms redirecting here, see IMRO (disambiguation)

(VMRO VMRO Vnatresno Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija (Macedonian political party; Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation) ). The VMRO members were aware that they could not raise an uprising without weapons and ammunitionThis article is largely based on the article in the out-of-copyright 11th edition of the Encyclopdia Britannica, which was produced in 1911. It should be brought up to date to reflect subsequent history or scholarship (including the references, if any).
which is why they decided to put this very delicate issue on their agenda. At that time, the Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek propagandas had entered deep into the Slav-Macedonian families and it was not known which family backed which propagandapropaganda, systematic manipulation of public opinion, generally by the use of symbols such as flags, monuments, oratory, and publications. Modern propaganda is distinguished from other forms of communication in that it is consciously and deliberately used to
This made it even more difficult to find loyal and fully prepared suppliers of weapons. The VMRO members, especially their leader Dame Gruev Damyan Yovanov Gruev (Bulgarian : Дамян Йованов Груев; Macedonian: , were convinced that only the Albanians could be trusted for this. Gruev trusted the Albanians so much that he spoke about the plan for the uprising with the prisoners in the Bitola prison. Consequently, VMRO linked up with the Albanians, who successfully completed this delicate and very risky job. Atanas Lozancev, a witness from that time, wrote in his memoirsmem•oir
n. that he was shocked when he saw the Albanians supply VMRO with weapons and share their food, which made him feel as though he was dreaming. Historian Manol Panevski writes that there were no traitors among the Albanians that supplied the weapons, even though they were subjected to maltreatment maltreatment Social medicine Any of a number of types of unreasonable interactions with another adult. See Child maltreatment, Cf Child abuse. , but there were many traitors among the Slav-Macedonians. Nexhipi writes that he has written about the issue of supply of weapons and ammunition many times in both Albanian and Macedonian, which is why there is no need to write about it further. He notes that, had the Slav-Macedonians tried to secure weapons through other channels and not through the Albanians, the uprising would have been long forgotten, there would have been no Krusevo Republic, the legendary battle at Meckin Kamen would not have been fought, and there would be no "Cresovo topce" (Cherry wood Cannons--cannon used in Ilinden Uprising). The "Cresovo topce" was made by the Albanians from Krusevo, especially Pitu GuliPitu Guli (Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serbian: Питу Гули), also called Dimitrios Gouli and Peto the Vlach
(Guri) and the two Albanian brothers from the family Borjari, who are founders of the first factory for weapons and ammunition in Macedonia and broader. Thus, it is no accident that the Albanians, Vlachs, and SlavMacedonians had equal number of ministers and parliamentarians in the Krusevo Republic, Nexhipi concludes.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Without+albanians,+Krusevo+Republic+would+have+been+forgotten-a0205988106

Perhaps the "huge" number of albanians and their "huge" contribution where really the vlach - but we have modern day albanian "historians" distort facts and transform these vlach into "albanians"?

Albanian tosks, "greeks" and vlach in certain parts of the balkans have the same dress, im thinking you saw a few photos of vlach and thought they where albanian. Same as their surnames, you saw some vlach surnames that look a bit similiar to albanian surnames and then decided to claim them as albanians.

[Big Bad Sven]

Heres an interesting thought:

In the ottoman times Albanian Gheg muslims where very fierce and loyal lap dogs to the ottoman turks.

What do you think would be running though the minds of the Albanian tosks who where just so important and crucial to the Krusevo uprising (and this includes notable Albanian heroes like Pitu Guli) when they where attacking and killing their own people i.e. the muslim ghegs loyal to the sultan.

[Risto the Great]

Well Prolet & Risto...I have no doubt of his nationality since there are many evidences regarding him as an Albanian. Of course, there are some other sources who called Scanderbeg as Epirot or even as Macedonian but you know in that time was too fashionable using of ancient names due to influence of humanism.

The fact that Scanderbeg is regarded in world-wide historical community as an Albanian reject possibility of being of other nationality. At least, Scanderbeg identify himself as Albanian.

Have you had the chance to review the following thread Epirot?

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1819

[Epirot]

Greater Albania or “united albania”, “greater macedonia” or united Macedonia. What ever, its all subjective to who ever is saying it and what they mean buy it.

The positive spin of “united Albanians” sounds very rosy and cheerful the tosks and the crazy mountain men ghegs, but when it comes to Macedonians its bad news because the goals of the League of Prizren where to incorporate lots of Macedonian land and people into a single Albanian entity.
Strange that the map that the League of Prizren proposed and thought for is the exact same as the map of “greater Albania” – which is used by the KLA, NLA, certain Albanian politicians and the radical population of Albanians.

The map that the League of Prizren used e.g. “United Albanian lands”:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Albanski_vilajet.gif

The map of “greater Albania” used by the American-albanian diaspora group, and also used by KLA and NLA:

http://www.kosovo.net/aacllg.gif

It is very foolish to claim that Greater Albania is a “Serbian” myth when you have Albanian and Albanian Diaspora organisations, Albanian politicians, and Albanian Diaspora talk it up.


And finally, like I said Albanians seem to have forgotten about the Krusevo republic only until recently, now they are claiming that it was they who did the bulk of the fighting and organising, and that people like Pitu Guli where really “Albanians”.
If the Albanians where such important roles and heroes in the Krusevo uprising, then why aren’t there any famous known Albanian heroes in Macedonian, Bulgarian, or vlach stories. Even Albanians don’t know of any names or heroes from this event, yet apparently they played a “huge part” in it.

Mate it is really hard to find with you a normally way of debating. You become immediately nervous, one-sided and a bit of chauvinist.
Albanians organizations throughout our Diaspora aspire an united state of all lands where Albanians make up the majority. All of Vilayets demanded by League of Prizren to join in United Albania were made up by Albanian majority. Of course, there was a number of Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians and even Bulgarians but they were minority in their respective vilayets.

You're insisting again and again to diminish Albanian role in such Uprising. You seem very unfair and too ridicule, since once a time even N.Karev appreciated and recognized Albanian contribution to the Krusheva Republic. Case closed. I won't keep debate with you anymore because you start always by prejudices.

Have a look on below map:

http://turkeymacedonia.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/map20of20united20macedonia.jpg

It is obviously that United Macedonia encompass non-Macedonian lands like its western side which is inhabited chiefly by the Albanians.

[Mastika]

The positive spin of “united Albanians” sounds very rosy and cheerful the tosks and the crazy mountain men ghegs, but when it comes to Macedonians its bad news because the goals of the League of Prizren where to incorporate lots of Macedonian land and people into a single Albanian entity.

It is very foolish to claim that Greater Albania is a “Serbian” myth when you have Albanian and Albanian Diaspora organisations, Albanian politicians, and Albanian Diaspora talk it up.

In regards to Greater Albania, United Macedonia, Greater Bulgaria etc., the very use of the word "greater" implies that the land is far greater then the respective nation state would need. In any case there will be both winners and losers with the implementation of a "Greater" country. Every 'greater' country would include huge minorities and this is partly why no country in the Balkans is in a greater form. Take Macedonia for exmample, it is only 38% of United Macedonia however already has minorities in excess of 30%.

Just a point, the Macedonians are the only nation state who never got to see their "greater" country in the Balkans [except for Bosnian Muslims, however the current BiH can be said to be that]. Every other country (including Albania) had their so-called "time in the sun".

Unlike the rest of the ethnicities in the region, Albanians are the only ones who seriously seem to be comtemplating the formation of a Greater Albania. Step 1 - Kosovo is already complete.

[Epirot]

In regards to Greater Albania, United Macedonia, Greater Bulgaria etc., the very use of the word "greater" implies that the land is far greater then the respective nation state would need. In any case there will be both winners and losers with the implementation of a "Greater" country. Every 'greater' country would include huge minorities and this is partly why no country in the Balkans is in a greater form. Take Macedonia for exmample, it is only 38% of United Macedonia however already has minorities in excess of 30%.

Just a point, the Macedonians are the only nation state who never got to see their "greater" country in the Balkans [except for Bosnian Muslims, however the current BiH can be said to be that]. Every other country (including Albania) had their so-called "time in the sun".

Unlike the rest of the ethnicities in the region, Albanians are the only ones who seriously seem to be comtemplating the formation of a Greater Albania. Step 1 - Kosovo is already complete.

I wish to know when was the 'time in the sun' of Albanians?
How many times I should repeat that there is no Greater Albania because Albanians do not claim to extent their united state beyond its true frontier. United Albania encompass just land where Albanians make up the majority. Albania was divided between Serbia, Montenegro and Greece who invaded more than 60% of Albanian lands (Kosova, Sandjak, southern Montenegro, Chameria and what is now called Western Macedonia). So, claiming 'greatness' of Albania by using such fallacious terms like 'Great Albania' sounds to be more than idiocy.
Albania like Macedonia was partitioned by Monarchist States of Balkan, created by Europe.

[Mastika]

I wish to know when was the 'time in the sun' of Albanians?
How many times I should repeat that there is no Greater Albania because Albanians do not claim to extent their united state beyond its true frontier. United Albania encompass just land where Albanians make up the majority. Albania was divided between Serbia, Montenegro and Greece who invaded more than 60% of Albanian lands (Kosova, Sandjak, southern Montenegro, Chameria and what is now called Western Macedonia). So, claiming 'greatness' of Albania by using such fallacious terms like 'Great Albania' sounds to be more than idiocy.
Albania like Macedonia was partitioned by Monarchist States of Balkan, created by Europe.

A Greater Albania existed from 1941 to 1944.

Although you yourself do not seem like you are calling for a greater Albania, many others do want one.

This image clearly shows that parts of Greater Albania exist "beyond it's true frontier", that being the ethnic Albanian frontier.

[Epirot]

A Greater Albania existed from 1941 to 1944.

This image clearly shows that parts of Greater Albania exist "beyond it's true frontier", that being the ethnic Albanian frontier.

Mastika, your map does not present 'A great Albania' from 1941 to 1944 because its map look like:



Tell me which part was non-Albanian land?
If you persist in its 'greatness' of boundaries, can you expand me why this 'Great Albania' did not encompass compact Albanian lands like: Sandjak, regions around Mitrovica (100% Albanian) and Chameria in south.

'Great Albania' could be only if Albanians claim to expand their state in former Illyrian territories:

[Risto the Great]

Epirot, I am not convinced that modern Albanians are Illyrians. Nor am I convinced about age old Albanian presence in many of the places listed on the maps. Do you accept the motivation for Islamisation of many Albanians was to be able to carry arms and move freely within the Ottoman empire?

[Epirot]

Epirot, I am not convinced that modern Albanians are Illyrians. Nor am I convinced about age old Albanian presence in many of the places listed on the maps. Do you accept the motivation for Islamisation of many Albanians was to be able to carry arms and move freely within the Ottoman empire?

Risto, today's world-wide historical community admit that Albanians descent from one of Paleo-Balkanian people. The question is which people may be regarded as progenitors of Albanians:
1. Illyrians
2. Thracians
3. Daco-Mysians

The hipothesis of Thraco-Dacian ancestry is based speficifally in linguistical proofs, not historical ones. There is no a single historical record who tells of any migration of Albanians from Thrace, Dacia, etc.
Even one of promotors of such theory, V.Georgiev admitted that arguments of Thracian theory are not sufficient to complete such hypothesis into theory.

The most credible of all promoted theories down to our days is Illyrian one. It has linguistical, geographical, historical, anthropological, ethnographical and genetical evidences. Furthermore, Illyrian theory has more tradition because even Byzantine Chroniclers indicated Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians.

The fact that Albanian presence throughout former Illyricum is attested by some toponomic and onomastic evidences. You know that Alban or Arban is commonplace in western and central Penninsula.

I myself Muslim by religion. But sincerely religion never played any important role amongst us because we did not never identify ourself with religion unlike other Balkan's people who recognized sometimes themselves as a religous group. The fact that Albanians adopted Islam as their own religion was to secure some autonomy, carrying of arms, moving freely into their regions, to preserve their agricultural lands and many other 'utilitar' reasons.

[TrueMacedonian]

Bump it up. I love these topics that make the ufologists of AMAC cry foul lol.