Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    I said that the war in Kosovo would happen regardless, not that it would result in the same outcome.
    So what would the outcome have been? Serbia would have killed a million people and regained control of Kosovo? Or would they still be at war today? What can the end result possibly be?

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      the Russian stance is not giving anything away but when the us is involved it will get serious.It will require the coalition of the willing .It will be them & us.I think putin has bit more than he can chew.He didn't make allowances for a breakaway Ukraine which has been on the cards for a while.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        So what would the outcome have been? Serbia would have killed a million people and regained control of Kosovo? Or would they still be at war today? What can the end result possibly be?
        Gocka, I didn't respond to the rest of your email because your comments are detached from reality, they ignore what's actually happened in the past and are a case of 'selo gori, baba se cesla'.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          I propose Crimea separates from Ukraine.
          It wants to be in Russia but pretends it is doesn't.
          The USA will like this, it has a wonderful precedent in Kosovo for this.
          What is the difference here?
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
            Gocka, I didn't respond to the rest of your email because your comments are detached from reality, they ignore what's actually happened in the past and are a case of 'selo gori, baba se cesla'.
            I know Tom, only you live in reality.

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              I know Tom, only you live in reality.
              You should have a careful think about some of your comments and consider whether or not they are as hypothetical as you make them out to be. Particularly the one in relation to Macedonia. Maybe the year 2001 might ring a bell.

              You could perhaps also consider what it actually means to have an independent country, in particular, what the cost of having one is and what the cost of not having one is. Then maybe have a think about what one should avoid doing if they were to determine that the cost of having an independent country is too high and a decision is made to abort such a costly experiment.

              Then we can measure to what extent both of us live in reality.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Russia is making preparations to enter Eastern Ukraine.

                http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/wo...aine.html?_r=0
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Vangelovski
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 8531

                  Looks like Ukraine's leaders suffer from the same disease as Macedonia's: delusional optimism.

                  Ukraine’s interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk blasted what he called Russia’s “military aggression” of his country “has no reasons and no grounds.
                  If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                  The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    One Ukrainian soldier killed, another wounded, and others placed under arrest in Crimea...Ukraine authorizes its military to use force to protect themselves.

                    Russia’s annexation of the Crimea was hailed by President Vladimir Putin’s supporters Tuesday but bitterly condemned in Ukraine and the West.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      Russia signs treaty & annexes the crimea.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        The take on Crimea by a Russia analyst from the ANU:

                        http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comm...316-34v8n.html
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          From the above link:

                          These interests are two-fold and apply to all former Soviet republics: the preclusion of NATO's eastward expansion, and the protection of the well-being of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers. Both have been articulated clearly and consistently by the Kremlin since 2000. The legality or morality of these interests may be questioned, just like the US concepts of pre-emptive war or expediting Jeffersonian democracy via regime change, but they are good predictors of Moscow's behaviour.
                          This is not necessarily the will of the people we are talking about here. It is very much about spheres of influence. Democracy plays a part in it, but surely we can all see an opportunists goldmine here.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            what Russia did is highly illegal againsn't un charter etc,Russia did not respect un law on crimia.Use of armed forces, etc
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
                              (Churchill)
                              I like it. Seems relevant.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                                Ukraine authorizes its military to use force to protect themselves.
                                Russian forces are storming Ukrainian military locations in Crimea and meeting little resistance from Ukrainian soldiers. It almost seems as though the Ukrainians fear the reaction of Russia if they do react.


                                Ukraine's acting defence minister Igor Tenyukh yesterday lamented that his navy officers appeared too ready to surrender to Kremlin-backed militias and Russia's Black Sea Fleet that has made Crimea its home since the 18th century. “You know that in recent days, we have had our ships blockaded and seized even though our commanders had the authorisation to use force,” Mr Tenyukh told reporters in Kiev. “Unfortunately, the commanders made decisions on the spot. They chose not to use their weapons in order to avoid bloodshed.” The Ukrainians' refusal to engage Russian forces has led to a domino-like fall of their bases across the rugged peninsula of two million people.
                                Crimea appears all but lost. Perhaps they will have more resolve if the Russians begin to assert themselves in eastern Ukraine.
                                Originally posted by Risto the Great
                                I like it. Seems relevant.
                                The notion of 'democracy' does not exactly gel with "internationally recognised" borders, as the case of Crimea has demonstrated. It also means that if 9 out of 10 voters are idiots, then idiocy prevails.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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