The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Carlin

"Most of the so-called Greeks of that region (Thrace) was in fact Gagauz."

More on the indigenous population of Thrace.

1) Battle of Lebounion, April 29, 1091 - Emperor Alexios I Comnenos ordered his general Nikephoros Melissenos to recruit Vlachs for the imperial troops. Melissenos went to Ainos (Enez, at the mouth of Maritsa river), which suggests that the native Vlachs in question lived in southern Thrace.

2) June 5, 1205 - Letter written by the Latin emperor of Constantinople Henry I of Hainaut addressed to Pope Innocent III. In that letter, Adrianople is described as surrounded by mountains inhabited by Blachi: civitas est Grecie munitissima, et montibus tantum interpositis Blachorum affinis populis.

3) According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.

[Carlin]

Introduction, page XVII: Presence of a Gagauz population in Evros province in and around the city of Alexandroupolis and in the region of Thourion, and in Rodope province in the villages of Kallithea and Thrilorion.

-- Names, Religious Denominations and Ethnicity of Settlements in Western Thrace, A Supplement to "Ortsnamenkonkordanz Der Balkanhalbinsel", By F. de Jong - 1980

https://twitter.com/alexsakalis/stat...62392013840384

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Carlin

According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.

I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.

Whatever other towns were omitted in the charters of our Majesty, these shall be possessed by the same Archbishop and he shall collect fees from them all as well as from the Vlachs throughout Bulgaria and from the Turks around the Vardar.....

In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).

Thus, Basil famously issued a series of three sigillia after c. 1020, which outlined how the ecclesiastical structure of the province was to be reorganized, based on the archbishopric at Ohrid.


f.n. These three sigillia have only been preserved appended to a later chrysobull, apparently issued in 1272, and then only in one of four manuscripts containing the chrysobull (Cod. Sinait. 508 [976], 17th century). Two further manuscripts contain only a part of the first sigillon, and a third, a Slavonic translation of the chrysobull, nothing. The authenticity of Basil's arrangements have been questioned by two scholars: S. Antoljak, "Dali se avtentički onie tri ispravi na tsarot Vasilij II izdadeni vo korist na Ohridskata arhieskopija," in his Srednovekovna Makedonija, 3 vols. (Skopje, 1985), I, 69-108; E Konstantinou Tegiou-Stergiadou, Ta schetika tin Arhiepiskopi Achridas sigillia tou Vasileou II (Thessaloniki, 1988).

That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.

In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).

That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?

Correct SoM. It's from Madgearu's book.

I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs (vlahorinhini in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.

Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area). By the 19th century, most of them were probably "Greeks".

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Carlin

I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs (vlahorinhini in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.

Thanks for clarifying, I thought as much when I first read about that. So, it's an anachronistic reference to the Vlachs like those in Basil's supposed charter and the Gesta Hungarorum.

Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area).

No doubt that Vlachs were present in Thrace. The real question is when. Coincidentally, I have been doing some reading about Vlach origins over the past few days and was going to post something about it before I came across what you wrote on this thread, but wanted to respond first. I will post it shortly in the Romanian thread and would be interested in your thoughts.

[Carlin]

Can't wait!

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Turkish political representatives from Western Thrace meet with members of the 'Krste Misirkov' association near Voden to discuss minority issues in Greece:

https://vesnik-ilinden.com/partija-n...mTH3uJWMJkhazA

[Carlin]

"An unexpected insight in the history of Crete was provided by the IBD analysis. The results showed that the Cretans share high IBD with Western (CEU), Central (German, Polish), Northern (CEU, Scandinavian), and Eastern (Ukranian, Russian) European populations. Indeed, in previous studies, there has been an excess of IBD sharing reported between Eastern Europe and the Greeks, while an admixture event has been inferred using Poland as a representative population of the eastern component in the Greek population (Hellenthal et al., 2014; Ralph & Coop, 2013). Especially the results of Hellenthal et al. (2014) used GLOBETROTTER to infer (under a pulse‐admixture model that has the same assumptions as ALDER) that Greek DNA could be described as the mixture of 37% DNA from a Polish‐like source and 63% from a Cypriot‐like source occurring sometime between 718–1138 C.E.; our analyses here support these findings."

"The IBD sharing between Cyprus and Northern/Eastern Europeans could be explained if, as a result of the expansion in Asia Minor of Turkish states in 12th–13th centuries C.E., Byzantine populations, which included Scythians and Slavs, migrated to Cyprus."

"If the “tribes” that moved to the depopulated Crete included Hellenized Goths (Gothogreeks; Ostrogorsky, 1969; Turtledove, 1982) and Hellenized Slavs (Charanis, 1961) from Asia Minor, the IBD data could be explained."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6851683/

[Carlin]

Page 8:

"These three millions of Armenians, Ottoman subjects, are distributed as follows: 400,000 at Constantinople and in the Balkan peninsula, 600,000 in Asia Minor and in the plain of Cilicia, 670,000 in Armenia Minor (...), and 1,300,000 in Turkish Major Armenia..."

URL:
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/...sec=frontcover

[Carlin]

The Armenian historian, Sebeos (ch. 6), relates that at a much earlier date the Roman emperor, Maurice, had a scheme for the wholesale deportation to Thrace of the Armenian population living in his dominions. He at the same time proposed to Chosrow that he should deport the Armenians under his rule.

https://www.google.ca/books/edition/...sec=frontcover