Albanians in Greece

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

First of all these terms are Greek,so why would Albanian warriors use Greek appelations?

I am so tired tonight as I cannot waste not a single minute. However, I see that you deserve a short lesson...If the terms are Greek (which I do not deny), this does not presuppose that they were Greek by ethnicity, does it? Let see the following example:

The etymology of the word "hajduk" is unclear. One theory is that hajduk was derived from the Turkish word haiduk or hayduk, which was originally used by the Ottomans to refer to Hungarian infantry soldiers. Another theory suggests that the word comes from the Hungarian hajtó or "hajdó" (plural hajtók or "hajdók"), meaning a (cattle) drover.[3] Indeed, these two theories do not necessarily contradict each other, as the Balkan word is said to be derived from the Turkish word haiduk or hayduk (bandit),[1][2][4] while the Turkish is in turn believed to have been borrowed from Hungarian and to have originally referred to Hungarian mercenaries who guarded the Hungarian-Turkish border.[5] Families of Croatian descent with the same oral traditions of "mountain banditry" use the surname Hidek, a derived form of "hajduk"

In reality, the hajduci of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries were as much guerrilla fighters against the Ottoman rule as they were bandits and highwaymen who preyed not only on Ottomans and their local representatives, but also on local merchants and travellers. As such, the term could also refer to any robber and carry a negative connotation

The Croatian and Serbian warriors were called as 'hajduki', a term which seems to stem from a Hungarian word. I do not believe you're suggesting that both Croatian and Serbian hajduks were Hungarians!!! I have to post again some passages ignored by you:


Sketches of modern Greece, by a young English volunteer in the ..., Volume 1, p. 406

The klepthes (the reputable robbers, as they esteemed themselves), of the mountains of Zante, and of the adjoining islands before enumerated, identified themselves with those of Albania, and are said, for many years, during the period of Venetian rule, to have taken common part with them.

Notes and observations on the Ionian islands and Malta: with some ..., Volume 2 By John Davy, p. 127

Highway robbers in other countries are the outcasts of mankind. In Greece, on the contrary, they were looked upon as heroes and protectors of the oppressed people, who, by the decperate resistance of those savage mountaineers, baffled all the attempts of the Turks to obtain quiet and permanent possession of the country.Protected, like the Circassians on Mount Caucasus, in their present warfare against the Russian aggressor, by their natural ramparts and their indomitable courage, the sons of the mountains made such havoc among the Turks of the plain, that they forced the indolent Pashas to take them into military service as a regular police, for the security of the country.These large bodies of free-born mountain Klephts were now called by a nobler name, armatoli; their chiefs became capitanseoi, and the wild warriors themselves pallikaria, or handsome youths. The highlands were divided into captainshipp, (kapitanata) where the command of the district succeeded from father to son.Yet, the Turks soon perceived the danger arising from such an organization of armed and daring native Christians. They repeatedly attempted to destroy the armatoli and their captains by treachery, and the ballads of modern Greece are full of the astonishing deeds of the heroes of Boukovalla, and Agrapha.When at last the general insurrection broke out in the year 1821, it was these independent klephts or armatoli, at that time the only armed and organized part of the Greek nation, who, at once uniting with the clergy, the peasantry, and the shepherds of the plains, defeated the Turks, under the command of Kolokotronis, Botzaris and the other Captains, and thus became the bulwark of Grecian independence.*

Mercersburg quarterly review, Volume 8, p. 353

I am asking myself what was the ethnicity of Kolkontronis, Botzaris and the other notable captains?

I do not know if you have read the book of Arvanite scholar, Aristidh Kola!? He gives ample proofs in regards with the ethnicity of kleftes and armatoli, which were undoubtedly Christian Albanians of what later became as Greece. He also ironized with the modern Greek historians when it comes to determine the ethnicity of participants of "revolutionary" wars. All of fierce anti-Ottoman warriors they describe without hesitation as Greeks, but if any of those participants co-operated with the Turks, he was Albanian. So you admit the Albanian origin of kleftes, only if they had coperated with the Ottomans, but if they did not, they were not Albanians any more. They were Greeks, even though they were not aware about this

Also, many Albanian 'armatoli' in the neighbourhood of Monastir and Fiorina, as in other parts of Greece, embarked upon paths of crime and extortion at the expense of travellers passing through the defiles...

History of Macedonia, 1354-1833m Apostolos Euangelou Vakalopoulos - 1973, p. 286

There were also in Albania, Thessaly, and Greece proper bodies of Christian warriors, called armatoli, who acted as bands of armed police, but whose actions came often to be confounded with those of the klephts.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica: latest edition. A dictionary of ...: Volume 11
Day Otis Kellogg, Thomas Spencer Baynes, William Robertson Smith - 1902 -

Their liking to the guerilla life has grown out of the ancient organisation of the Byzantine militia, or band of Armatoli. These were principally recruited by Albanians, but Greeks were also enrolled; and when turbulent spirits could not easily brook the insults to be met with in humble private life, they invariably had recourse to this military career. It often terminated, however, in the still more genial occupations of the Klepht.

New monthly magazine, Volume 87

Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai

some Klephtes and Armatoloi were Greeks and some were Albanians

The majority of Kleftes and Armatoli were Albanians. That's why the used to wear the Albanian fustanella:


The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece

[Agamoi Thytai]

Originally Posted by Epirot

I am so tired tonight as I cannot waste not a single minute. However, I see that you deserve a short lesson...If the terms are Greek (which I do not deny), this does not presuppose that they were Greek by ethnicity, does it? Let see the following example:


The Croatian and Serbian warriors were called as 'hajduki', a term which seems to stem from a Hungarian word. I do not believe you're suggesting that both Croatian and Serbian hajduks were Hungarians!!!

The word Hajduk could also be of Turkish origin,that's what your source actually say.Furthermore,it also says that this term was first applied by the Turks to the Croatian and Serbian brigands,they knew the Hungarian brigands under that name and so they called the Serbs and Croats too.Now who you think introduced the terms kleftes and armatoli in southern Balkans,the Turks?Whatfor,did Turks call people with names of foreign languages?

Originally Posted by Epirot

I have to post again some passages ignored by you:


Sketches of modern Greece, by a young English volunteer in the ..., Volume 1, p. 406

That's meaningless,I also can find dozens of similar passages with different view than yours:

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/79...75ff045b8b.gif
http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/bb...7bfa593d3a.gif
http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/f1...a1095ad600.gif
http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/da...11202e3fab.gif
http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/64...4fdc15107a.jpg

Originally Posted by Epirot

I am asking myself what was the ethnicity of Kolkontronis, Botzaris and the other notable captains?

Some were of Arvanitic origin,like Miaoulis,Bumbulina and Tzavelas,not all though.The majority were not Arvanites,like Kanaris,Karaiskakis,Diakos,Papaflesas,Makrygiannis ,Nikitaras,Ypsilantis,Panourias,Mavromichalis e.t.c.As for those two you mentioned,Kolokotronis was not Arvanitis,this you can easily figure out if you read his memoirs:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8430/kolokotronisv.jpg
Botsaris was from Suli and as far as I know Suliotes were a blend of Albanians and Greeks (that's why many toponyms in the district of Suli were Greek).However Suliotes selfidentified as Greeks,at least this is what another Suliote,Lambros Tzavelas points out in his letter to Ali Pasha:
http://books.google.gr/books?id=-JMD...ceiver&f=false

And even Ali Pasha himself didn't consider both Botsaris and Tzavelas as Albanians:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=-JMD...%20you&f=false

Originally Posted by Epirot

I do not know if you have read the book of Arvanite scholar, Aristidh Kola!? He gives ample proofs in regards with the ethnicity of kleftes and armatoli, which were undoubtedly Christian Albanians of what later became as Greece.

I've read his book "Αρβανίτες και η καταγωγή των Νεοελλήνων" (Arvanites and the origin of Modern Greeks).He was not a qualified historian or linguist and a very deluded person.Do you reall agree with all of his claims?He considered that Arvanites (and subsequently all Albanians) are of ancient Greek origin!Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Epirot

He also ironized with the modern Greek historians when it comes to determine the ethnicity of participants of "revolutionary" wars. All of fierce anti-Ottoman warriors they describe without hesitation as Greeks, but if any of those participants co-operated with the Turks, he was Albanian. So you admit the Albanian origin of kleftes, only if they had coperated with the Ottomans, but if they did not, they were not Albanians any more. They were Greeks, even though they were not aware about this

I've already shown many quotes of non-Greek authors that distinguished Greeks from Albanians in ethnic and not religious sense.

Originally Posted by Epirot

The majority of Kleftes and Armatoli were Albanians. That's why the used to wear the Albanian fustanella:


The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece

Why is the fustanela considered as exclusively Albanian dress?It existed amongst most Balkan peoples,Serbs,Bulgarians,Macedonians,Romanians,Vla chs and Greeks wore fustanelas too!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Agamoi, are you seriously trying to downplay the significance of the Albanian element in modern Greeks, particularly those from the first half of the 19th century? The sources of the time are absolutely full of references to Albanians (and they are Albanian-speaking peoples not just people identifying as Albanians) in many parts of what became modern Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1484111.html

Albanians go barefoot to their barren land: Greece is expelling thousands of immigrant workers, who prefer virtual slave labour to the poverty of home. Tony Barber in Kakavija reports

Sunday 11 July 1993

THEIR CLOTHES were dusty and their faces were burnt from weeks of labour under the Greek sun. Barefoot, bent double beneath sacks of possessions, one spare hand gripping a plastic bag, they staggered along the short stretch of no man's land that marks the border between Greece and Albania.
There were about 20 in all, mostly middle-aged men and teenage boys. Once inside Albania, they were surrounded by taxi drivers offering to take them, for a fat sum, to their home towns.

The Albanians crossing at the remote, mountainous frontier post of Kakavija last Friday were the latest victims of a sour dispute between Albania and Greece. The Greek authorities, fed up with hundreds of thousands of Albanians who have crossed the border illegally in the past two years in search of employment, began to expel them on 25 June. The Albanian authorities complain that Greek policemen and soldiers have treated the Albanians like dirt, beating them with clubs, destroying their belongings and bundling them across the border with volleys of verbal abuse.

Ajim Canaj, who worked for a month as an agricultural labourer tending olive trees and cutting grass near Ioannina in northern Greece, said: 'I was trying to make some money for my wife and three children at home. My employer paid me very little and never even gave me a slice of bread to eat. Then last week the police arrived. They knew exactly where all the Albanians were working. They came at night and beat my friends. It was too dangerous for me. I came back to Albania of my own will.'

During his illegal stay in Greece, Canaj saved the equivalent of pounds 50. It seems a pitiful amount, but it is more than twice the monthly wage of a worker in Albania's ravaged state sector. Hard graft and humiliation in Greece are better than the desperation and squalor at home.

Rifat Arapi, a 21-year-old with a tuft of beard on his chin, had worked on a variety of farms across Greece in the past two months, sleeping in the open air or in barns. 'We heard that the Greek police were getting very tough, so we decided to come back. The police were arresting our friends and searching their pockets. If they found some money, they tore it up into little pieces. But I will go back if the situation improves. I didn't manage to save much this time.'

Mikel Bitri, the commander on the Albanian side of the border, said that the Greeks had forcibly expelled about 26,000 Albanians in the past fortnight. Hundreds of others, like Ajim Canaj and Rifat Arapi, had chosen to get out while the going was good.

Greece's Public Order Ministry estimated last February that about 150,000 illegal Albanian immigrants were in the country. The figure is deceptive, because many Albanians stay for only a month or two, and are replaced by others. Greek authorities say they deported 84,000 Albanians in 1991 and 379,000 in 1992. Since Albania's population is about 3.3 million and almost all the illegal immigrants are male, this means that one in four or five Albanian men may have entered Greece without permission in search of arduous, poorly paid work.

Nothing illustrates better the hardship of life in Albania, Europe's poorest and most barren country.

The pepole have thrown off the communist system which, under the Stalinist Enver Hoxha, was one of the world's most secretive and ruthless dictatorships. But his legacy remains. Albania is a country of crumbling houses and pot-holed roads where mules and bicycles are as common a form of transport as cars. Small children, apparently abandoned, lie wrapped in blankets on the streets, while others beg for money or try to sell cigarettes and soft drinks. Some apartment blocks lack doors or windows, some homes have no flushing toilets. There is little incentive to stay in this forlorn land, and every incentive to leave.

The Albanians who have entered Greece have spread themselves far and wide. When the police began their latest campaign of expulsions, in an operation called 'Broom Sweep' by the press, they found Albanians in Athens, Crete, Kos, Patmos, Rhodes and the Dodecanese islands. But not all Greek politicians agree with the deportations.

'These massive expulsions of poor people are no response to the serious political problems posed by Greek-Albanian relations,' said Maria Damanaki, the president of the radical Left Coalition.

The dispute between Athens and Tirana is, indeed, about rather more than illegal immigration. The Albanian government says the expulsions were in retaliation for its deportation two weeks ago of a Greek Orthodox priest from the southern town of Gjirokaster. The authorities accused the priest, Chrysostomos Myaidonis, of inciting the Greek minority in Albania to campaign for unification with Greece.

The ethnic Greeks live in a part of southern Albania that Greece calls Northern Epirus. Although the present Greek government disclaims any ambition to annex the area, previous rulers have taken a different view. It was not until 1987 that the former Greek prime minister, Andreas Papandreou, formally ended the state of war that had existed between Greece and Albania since the Second World War.

Ever since it won independence in 1913, one of Albania's greatest fears has been partition between Serbia and Greece. In the current Balkan climate of aggressive nationalism and territorial rivalry, these fears are increasing. Expulsions of Albanians from Greece, though entirely justified from a legal point of view, may be pouring more fat on the fire.

https://www.irr.org.uk/cgi-bin/news/open.pl?id=1963

Operation 'Broom Sweep' targets Albanians
By Liz Fekete
1 October 1993
Thirteen thousand Albanians have been expelled from Greece after Albania deported a Greek-Orthodox priest accused of anti-Albanian propaganda and inciting the Greek minority in Albania to campaign for unification with Greece.
The Greek chief of police, Antonis Lambadiaris, said that operation 'Broom Sweep' would be followed by the deportation of 100000 Albanians and called on Greeks to report illegals.

Arrests were also carried out on the Greek islands of Crete, Kos, Patmos, Rhodes, the Cyclades and the Dodecanese, where hundreds of immigrants are employed in construction or agriculture. Those rounded up in Athens were taken to a special centre in the port of Piraeus.

The Albanian authorities say that those expelled have been 'treated like dirt', beaten with clubs and their belongings destroyed.

[Risto the Great]

10 years later they were respected in Greece for their willingness to do all kinds of work.

[La Bira]

This is a copy of an older post of mine.

After a massive exit of Greek immigrants (to Germany, USA, Canada and Australia) in the 50s and 60s, Greek demographics were stabilized for about 20 years.
Around 1990, after the collapse of Albania, a massive influx of illegal immigrants started (about 100,000 people annually, or 1% of the population). This is also reflected in the 2001 census. These immigrants, that were meanwhile legalized, were about 7% of the population. Among them 55% were Albanians (including Greeks from Albania) while the rest origins are two small to mention (5% Bulgarians, 5% Romanians, 5% Georgians etc).
Statistics show that in the 90s the number of “fast deportations” (the ones Greeks call “re-forwarding”) was about 150,000-250,000 a year. This means that the average Albanian illegal immigrant had the experience of being spotted, arrested, brought to Albania, only to re-enter in Greece illegally at least once of probably 2-5 times in his life.
Well… the persistent eventually win.

This means that, based on 2001 census, around 4% of Greek population, are immigrants from Albania.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Greece has under 11 million people today, and some estimates put the number of immigrants from Albania to about 1 million, and several hundred thousand for immigrants from Africa and Asia. There are also thousands of local Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies and Albanians ("Arvanites"), amongst others. Who knows what the true figures are, perhaps one day the Greek government will finally develop some decency and run a census based on language and ethnic background, or they will just wait until they brainwash their most recent arrivals.

[Bill77]

Theodoros Pangalos (The ethnic Albanian)

Theodoros Pangalos (Greek: Θεόδωρος Πάγκαλος, born 17 August 1938) is a Greek politician, and leading member of the Panhellenic Socialist Movement. He currently serves as the Vice-President of the Greek government, responsible for the coordination of the Government Council for Foreign Affairs and Defense (KYSEA) and the new Economic & Social Policy Committee.[1]





Pangalos was born in Eleusina, Greece. He is the grandson of General and 1926 dictator Theodoros Pangalos.

GENERAL and DICTATOR THEODOROS PANGALOS
Pangalos was born on the island of Salamis.His mother was descendant of the local Arvanite fighter of the Greek Revolution, Giannakis Meletis [Hatzimeletis]

[George S.]

Is he trying to stick it in his mouth or up his nose.He is greedy & salivating at the food.?

[Onur]

Apparently Greece created it`s own political party in Albania for their artificial Greek minority in there. The leader of that party says that they are annoyed by the Albanians who are referring their homeland as Chameria in Greece because according to him, there is no place called as Chameria in there;

Vangelis Doules, President of the Human Rights Union and leader of the “OMONIA” Greek Minority Party, gave an interview with a big Albanian TV station (“5 questions with Babaramo” on News24) that became the center of media attention due to his strong political opinions.

Doules referred to the bilateral relations between Albania and Greece and restated that they play a significant role in Albania becoming an EU member.

What frustrated the Albanian audience was the accusations of Mr. Doules, according to which many old Albanians apply for Greek passports stating as their birth place the indefinite geographical location “Tsamouria”. There is no administration unit called Tsamouria in Greece, he stressed.

The deliberate mistake is due to the nationalism and expanding ambitions of the Albanian Deputies Shpëtim Idrizi and Dashamir Tahiri, who reacted badly to Doules’s public statements.

Doules was asked if Albanians from “Tsamouria” (or Chamaria) are discriminated against by Greek authorities and he replied that such issues are misguiding and that there is no such geographical location as “Tsamouria” in the Greek state after its liberation. It’s an unacceptable gimmick that does not honor Albania, he added. Between the two nations there are concrete borders as signed by the Treaty of Mutual Friendship and Co-operation between Albanian President Mperisa and his former Greek counterpart Stefanopoulos.

http://eu.greekreporter.com/2012/03/...-no-tsamouria/

Then i wonder where the so-called pure hellenic dance style of Tsamiko inspired from? from which term?