Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Carlin]

0) Even more interesting is Cousinery’s reference in 1831 to the presence of Vlach-speakers, probably Arvanitovlachs, in the area of Argos in the Peloponnese. He reports that, after the War of Independence of 1821, he met some Vlachs, men and women, in Argos market, who told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the mountains around Argos. He also notes that these Vlachs spoke a Latinate language, like the Vlachs he had met in Macedonia.

http://www.vlachs.gr/en/home/english...ainland-greece

1) "Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?", Johann Benos
Many authors believe that the Melingians were either of Slav or of unknown origin.
http://www.rutzen-verlag.de/publikationen/thetis2.html

Here is a summary from the article by Benos (direct citations/translations) in terms of the presence of Vlachs in Lakonia, Messenia and Tzakonia:

- The landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos was called until recently EMVLACHINA.
- Chalkokondylis called the Taygetos residents 'Valaken', i.e. Vlachs, who spoke a similar language as the "Dacians".
- Melingi, the indomitable tribe of Taygetos and Parnon mountains could initially not be defeated by the crusaders.
- A much more substantive evidence of the Vlach origins of Melingi deliver the toponyms. Just where the Melingi settled, there also are the most Vlach place names: names of villages, hamlets and of localities - which can be delivered neither from the Slavic, nor Turkish, nor Albanian, nor Greek. The Vlach-Melingi place names can be found on the west side of Taygetos, Outer Mani in Western Messenia and in South Lakonia (West of Gythion).
- Typical examples are two villages today Orini Melingu and Chimerini Melingu, formerly called, Melingu and Melingitika Kaliwia, which are near the small town of Astros, Arcadia - very close to Tzakonia.
- Nikon Metanoite, year 965 AD, called the residents of Taygetos Myrmidons.
- G. Phrantzes also referred to the Melingi, as Myrmidons: "I traveled the country of Myrmidons in Epidauros (meaning Epidauros Limera at Monemvasia), Maleas (the peninsula) and Tanarion (Taygetos and Mani peninsula)".
- Evliya Celebi, year 1668/1669, states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."
- As further evidence for the Vlach lineage of Melingi are the numerous Vlach surnames of Maniates - especially from Outer Mani, the ancient home of Melingi: Burikos (Buriku), Ventikos (Ventiku), Dimarogas, Pambukis, Tukaliaunas, Chamodrakas.
- To close it off here, Benos cites the Greek investigator Katsanis (who wrote the book titled "Koutsovlachika kai Tsakonika" -- "Vlach and Tsakonian"). His finding is startling, as Katsanis states:

"Similarities in LEXICAL level between Tsakonian and Vlach were a remarkable fact, but not inexplicable and incomprehensible. In present case, however, we observe similarities and equalities that over the lexical level go out and capture both the PHONETIC and the MORPHOLOGIC".

2) Direct quotes from pg. 75, ft. 206 - Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)":

"Vlach word is preserved even today in the villages of Mesa Mani (= Inner Mani). From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach".

Page 111, ft. 304:

"The inhabitants of mountain villages of the Peloponnese were alloy or blend of Orthodox (Christian) populations, which of course, confirms the existence of the Vlachs which arises from an order of the Venetians (1688), and from Mani songs that send out to the devil the Vlach language..."

3) C. N. Sathas states:

Sathas, o.l.c., se sert des temoignages ecrits pour soutenir que les Slaves ne sont jamais arrives dans le Peloponnese et que sous leurs noms se cachent les Valaques. -> Sathas used written testimonies to support that the Slavs never arrived in the Peloponnese and hide under their names Vlachs.

4) Source: MELETIOU GEWGRAFIA PALAIA KAI NEA, Venice, 1728 ----> Later came Vlachs from Dacia, namely Great Wallachia, and inhabited the Taygetos in Peloponnese.

Source: Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen âge publiés ... By Konstantinos N. Sathas

5) The London Quarterly Review, published in April 1895 and July 1895: "The Wallachians ... are numerous in the Peloponnesus."

6) Μικρότερες ομάδες Αρβανιτοβλάχων σύμφωνα με την παράδοση εγκαταστάθηκαν νότια στην Πελοπόννησο --> According to tradition groups of Arvanitovlachs settled in the southern Peloponnese.

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2011/0...post_7292.html

7) Source: ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

A) Pages 75 and 442 of this book:

"Gkopes was called a village in Patras region (in northern Peloponnese), for which a Venetian document of 1688, informs us that together with its neighbors Gkreveno and Mouriki, inhabited by Vlachs and Arvanites."

B) Furthermore, on page 456 of the same book:

P. Kanelidis (original source: Athinai 10 October 1887, f. 37, periodiko "Evdomas") on the populations of Mani and Taygetos - relates how Koutsovlachs and Arvanitovlachs came from Epirus and Macedonia, and were located further south in the Peloponnese almost before the installation of "Slavs" named Ezerites and Milingi.

C) Continuing with the same book, page 454:

Modern Peloponnesians are basically of Arvanite and Vlach ethnic ancestry but they deny it and don't want to hear anything about it. Quote from the page: "...Let us therefore know, today's Peloponnesians who do not want to hear anything of their Arvanite and Arvanitovlach origin..."

8) Source: Mnemeia Hellenikes historias: Statuta et capitula --> Page "PREFACE LXXI".

French: "Dans la petition des Monembasiotes (1527), ces habitants des environs de Monembasie portent le nom Vulachi (Βλάχοι). Voir p. 231.
English: "In the petition of Monembasiotes (1527), the nearby residents of Monemvasia are named Vlachs (Βλάχοι). See p. 231."

9) Διεσκορπισμένοι εις διάφορα χωρία ως επί το πλείστον ορεινά από της Μακεδονίας έως την Πελοπόννησον είναι οι λεγόμενοι Βλάχοι, Μακεδόνες όντες και Θετταλοί και Έλληνες το γένος (σελ.522). --> Vlachs are dispersed all the way to the Peloponnese.

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2012/03/blog-post_21.html

[Amphipolis]

An interesting application. You type a surname and see where it appears in Greece. The numbers and sizes are DENSITY (numbers per 10000 people), not numbers of people. This was based on phone catalogues. The current example is for the name Kolokotronis but you can check any name (it has to be typed or copy-pasted in Greek), e.g. a Vlach name.

http://apps.vrisko.gr/apo-pou-kratae...bd%ce%b7%cf%82

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

And why is this in the defamatory thread Kolokotronis the Albanian? Why don’t we start Kolokotronis the Vlach admiral?

He was usually identified as ''arvanitovlach'' and most of Revolution figures were Arvanites so it is very easy for him to be mistaken for an Albanian.

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by tchaiku

He was usually identified as ''arvanitovlach'' and most of Revolution figures were Arvanites so it is very easy for him to be mistaken for an Albanian.

In the Greek heroic songs of the time of Greek War of Independence (1821-1829) Kolokotronis was appointed "Vlach King" and/or "King of the Vlachs" (vasilias tou Vlahou and Vlahovasilias). See: Frantzis, Amvrosios, Epitomi tis Istorias tis anagennitheisis Ellados arhomeni apo tou etous 1715, kai ligousa to 1837 --- Diirimeni eis tomous treis / Syggrafeisa para Amvrosiou Frantzi Prwtosygkellou tis prwin Hristianoupolews eparhias (Arkadias), kai ekdotheisa par' autou pros hrisin twn Ellinwn prosfwnitheisa de tw megaleiotatw vasilei tis Ellados Othwni tw A'., 1841, vol. 4. page 131.

Even the Greek patriot Filimon (the best witness of the Greek War of Independence) was forced to admit that Kolokotronis was very particularly associated with the nomadic Vlachs (the Arvanitovlachs, the best warriors of Morea according to Fillimon) of Morea --- Filimon, I., Dokimion istorkon peri tis Elliniko Epanastasews tou L. Filimon (1859-1861), vol. 3 page 140.

Furthermore, the two real names of Kolokotronis, Botica and Ciorchina are typical Vlach names and are used to express the small size, the stocky appearance and the swarthy/dark complexion. Do you know that this is exactly the etymological explanation given by Filimon and Kolokotronis himself in his own memoirs?

Also, Kanellos Deligiannis (1780-1862) nicknamed Kolokotronis "skatovlaho" -
http://www.hellinon.net/GlossaAgoniston21.htm

Before departing from this world Kolokotronis wrote his will for his children and was blessed to see Collinos, his younger son, married to the granddaughter of Caradja, the Prince of Moldovlachia, saying the unparalleled phrase:

"Now the fur coat has become an in-law with the cloak, the fez with the top hat, the Sovereign of the Vlachs with a Vlach of an old man!"

[tchaiku]

Its major town Gythium was a Spartan port
They were very late converts to Christianity (10th century: Nikon the Metanoeite)
Mani was a no-go area for certainly the Ottomans, and likely earlier invaders—so it's certainly possible that they have more Ancient Greek DNA (ugh) than their neighbours. We do know that there were Slavic settlements to the north of Mani (Melingoi, Ezeritai), and that Slavonic was still spoken in the area in the 15th century (John Cananus)
They speak an archaic dialect of Modern Greek [Maniots]—although not one with notable Doric lineage (unlike the Tsakonian language)
They have contempt for the inhabitants of the neighbouring lowlands, calling them Vlachs. A couple of rich ironies about this:
1. Elsewhere in Greece, Vlachs refers originally to Aromanians, and in colloquial usage, is equivalent to hillbilly—referring to highlanders, not lowlanders.
2. When the Maniots settled in Corsica (Cargèse), Vlachs is what they called the surrounding Corsicans. Who at least did speak a Romance language.

[tchaiku]

How did Maniots learn what a Vlach and Romance language is though?

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by tchaiku

Its major town Gythium was a Spartan port
They were very late converts to Christianity (10th century: Nikon the Metanoeite)
Mani was a no-go area for certainly the Ottomans, and likely earlier invaders—so it's certainly possible that they have more Ancient Greek DNA (ugh) than their neighbours. We do know that there were Slavic settlements to the north of Mani (Melingoi, Ezeritai), and that Slavonic was still spoken in the area in the 15th century (John Cananus)
They speak an archaic dialect of Modern Greek [Maniots]—although not one with notable Doric lineage (unlike the Tsakonian language)
They have contempt for the inhabitants of the neighbouring lowlands, calling them Vlachs. A couple of rich ironies about this:
1. Elsewhere in Greece, Vlachs refers originally to Aromanians, and in colloquial usage, is equivalent to hillbilly—referring to highlanders, not lowlanders.
2. When the Maniots settled in Corsica (Cargèse), Vlachs is what they called the surrounding Corsicans. Who at least did speak a Romance language.

Please, don't copy long texts from other forums or websites. They have no references and are too long to explore from the start.

Also, try to indicate if something is said by you, or is copied from somewhere else (give us a link) or is from a book (give us title and author). Lately, there are too many short posts without sources, point or explanation, some of them are in Greek, Latin or French!

Lastly, this post, which seems to be about Mani, is in the wrong thread.


===

[tchaiku]

The source is a Qoura guy but I uderstand

[Carlin]

Armanoi hoi Vlachoi - Page 22
N. I. Mertzos - 2001 - ‎Snippet view

Φαίνεται όμως πως ο Θόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης, ο Γέρος του Μοριά, μιλούσε και βλάχικα. Στο μεγάλο χαλασμό των Κολοκοτρωναίων, στο Μοριά είχε βλαχόφωνους συμπολεμιστές, όπως μαρτυρεί επιστολή του εγγονού του που δημοσιεύθηκε στην Εστία και στο Νεολόγο των Πατρών.

It seems, however, that Theodoros Kolokotronis, the Old Man of Moria, also spoke Vlach. ... in Moria there were Vlachophones, as evidenced by a letter from his grandson published in Hestia and Neologos of Patras.



https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...B9%CE%BF%CE%B9
https://books.google.ca/books?id=HX0...=X&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.ca/books?id=HX0...aVCt8Q6AEIIjAA
https://books.google.ca/books?id=HX0...skBccQ6AEIJTAA

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

And why is this in the defamatory thread Kolokotronis the Albanian? Why don’t we start Kolokotronis the Vlach admiral?

Kolokotroni's grandmother was Arvanite.