Ancient Historians considered Macedonians as separate & distinct entity!

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  • Imagination
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2011
    • 69

    #61
    And just to note : the video is from 2 years ago.

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #62
      I posted this originally on Maknews some years ago.

      ---

      From Appian's History of Rome: The Illyrian Wars


      [§5] Such was the punishment which the god visited upon the Illyrians and the Celts for their impiety. [114] But they did not desist from temple robbing, for again, in conjunction with the Celts, certain Illyrian tribes, especially the Scordisci, the Maedi, and the Dardani again invaded Macedonia and Greece together, and plundered many temples, including that of Delphi, but losing many men this time also.

      [82] The Romans, thirty-two years after their first encounter with the Celts, having fought with them at intervals since that time, now, under the leadership of Lucius [Cornelius] Scipio, made war against the Illyrians, on account of this temple robbery, as the Romans now held sway over the Greeks and the Macedonians.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        #63
        ..........How many times do Macedonians need to pay for your benevolent attitude towards Greece ? You know quite well what had transpired after the Balkan Wars. I do not intend to remind you but was secretly hoping that you would react to the Greek slogan of " Macedonia was always Greek". But not even a whisper came from you!

        Was Macedonia always Greek, gentlemen? When was it Greek? Was it Greek during Philip's time? Was it Greek after Alexander's death? Perhaps, it was Greek during the Roman times? How about during the Ottoman Era? Was it Greek then? This is a falsehood and you allow falsehood to prevail. Silence is a sign of approval.

        Greeks would not be acting with this much recklessness, impunity and bravado without your support. Now, emboldened by your explicit and implicit sup- port, they have moved forward and want to take, not just our Macedonian name, but also our identity, our language and our cultural heritage. And yet, you still remain silent as if we do not exist as people, as human beings with feelings and integrity. You gentlemen in the European parliament are disgusting hypocrites. On paper you roar like lions; in action you tuck tail and run like the cowards that you are................

        and the west will continue to support their falsification of our MACEDONIAN history in saying it is GRKO a bullshit made up state of the 19th century
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

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        • Onur
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 2389

          #64
          I don't know if this is posted here before but i saw this while i was reading Jordanes`s text called Getica, written in Latin in 551 AD. He mentions about Macedonians as distinct people from Greeks;

          hic Dio regem illis post tempora multa commemorat nomine Telephum. Ne vero quis dicat hoc nomen a lingua Gothica omnino peregrinum esse, qui nescit animadvertat usu pleraque nomina gentes amplecti, ut Romani Macedonum, Graeci Romanorum, Sarmatae Germanorum, Gothi plerumque mutuantur Hunnorum.


          this Dio, I say, makes mention of a later king of theirs named Telephus. Lest anyone say that this name is quite foreign to the Gothic tongue, let the ignorant find fault with the fact that the tribes of men make use of many names, even as the Romans borrow from the Macedonians, the Greeks from the Romans, the Sarmatians from the Germans, and the Goths frequently from the Huns.

          http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...ths/Goths1.htm

          Comment

          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            #65
            Originally posted by Onur View Post
            I don't know if this is posted here before but i saw this while i was reading Jordanes`s text called Getica, written in Latin in 551 AD. He mentions about Macedonians as distinct people from Greeks;
            Onur
            Good find, thanks for that!
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

            Comment

            • bilbil
              Junior Member
              • Mar 2011
              • 3

              #66
              Овде се книгите од Јустин


              - book 3….part 2
              During these transactions in Persia, all Greece, under the leadership of the Lacedaemonians and Athenians, was split into two parties, and turned their arms from foreign wars as it were against their own bowels. Of one people were formed two distinct bodies; and they who had so recently served in the same camp, were divided into two hostile armies. On the one side, the Lacedaemonians drew over to their faction the cities that had before been common auxiliaries to both. On the other side, the Athenians, renowned alike for their antiquity and their exploits, relied on their own strength. Thus the two most powerful people of Greece, made equal by the institutions of Solon and the laws of Lycurgus, rushed into war through envy of each other's power.

              Ја нема Македонија, чуднo

              - 6 книга- "The wars in Greece from 399 to 362 BCE" (Војните во Грција) - ги нема Тесалија, Епир ниту Македонија што значи Јустин не ги гледал како дел од "античка Грција"

              - 7 книга-The inhabitants were called Pelasgi,1 the country Paeonia..... што значи дека Пеонците биле дел од античка Македонија...... Се спомнува Каран и тоа дека верувале дека прчот (козорогот) е свето животно. Може да се направи интересна паралела со Ѓорѓи Кастриот
              http://i11.tinypic.com/2uesbno.jpg шлемот на Кастриот


              -8 книга -
              - The states of Greece, while each sought to gain the sovereignty of the country for itself, lost it as a body....
              - To oppose Onomarchus, the Thebans and Thessalians chose as general, not one of their own people, lest they should not be able to endure his rule if he should conquer, but Philip, king of Macedonia, voluntarily submitting to that power from a foreigner which they dreaded in the hands of their own countrymen....
              -Embassies came to him also from other states of Greece........ ако имаат амбасади значи не можат да бидат една држава

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                #67
                Alexander the great didn't use any greeks in his campaigns.He put them in the back of his entourage.As a matter of fact there were more greeks fighting with the persians against alexander than on alexanders entourage.Another distinction made by alexander was that alexander said that he didn't want the greeks to get the glory,he wanted the macedonians to get the full glory only.Another distinction overlooked is that alexanders army spoke only macedonian & not greek.They preferred only macedonian when they were in battle.
                Another distinction if macedonians & greeks were the same why were they not part of the city states?
                Also why did brother fight brother in the battle of cheronea if they were the same.?
                Another distinction is if the macedonians were the same people as the greeks why did alexander leave macedonian garrisons all around greece .The truth is alexander didn't trust the greeks ,they resisted him,they were a conquered people he didn't trust them & didn't want them revolting after he went to fight the persians.
                Last edited by George S.; 08-24-2011, 12:06 PM. Reason: ed
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #68
                  More distinctions.Under rome macedonia & greece were turned into provinces by the romans.A province of macedonia & a province of greece.
                  is a clear indication that they were seperate people.Also another distinction is made in the bible that macedonia was a biblical land.That is they accepted the christian message ahead
                  of the greeks.Also st Paul it says went to macedonia & to greece & then to macedonia.Paul would've considered them a different people.He called them men of athens.If paul went to the one place then why would there be a clear distinction made.Also it is also stated in the bible somewhere in the new testament that mary the mother of jesus made a trip to macedonia.If greece & macedonia were the same why didn't she go to the one place.?
                  Another distinction that is forgoten is that the greeks considered the macedonians as a tribe of the greeks ,lost shepherds.How does one explain their history when one considers macedonians were much earlier than the greeks on the greek peninsular & macedonians were in macedonia were much longer on their land.There is also no connection between the two.The greek harp about their myths that is their so called make beleive lies about the macedonians.The greeks presume that the macedonians & greeks worshipped the same gods.But more to the fact the greeks simply borrowed the macedonian ones & changed their names.Eg Ili is the sun god of the macedonians,the greeks borrowed him & called him helios.etc.
                  Last edited by George S.; 08-24-2011, 12:07 PM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • The LION will ROAR
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3231

                    #69
                    Originally posted by indigen View Post
                    The "window of opportunity" was essentialy limited to the reign of Filip II and Alexander III of Macedon (Makedonski), i.e. the "Greeks" or Athenians in particular did not see the light of freedom after the Lamia ("Hellenic") War in 323-322 before our era. It is also very questionable/ debatable whether the current (neo) "Hellenes" can claim to have regained it, as some modern historians claim, in 1829 after more than 2,000 years of foreign domination. During this "window of opportunity" Demosthenes was the pre-eminent Orator/leading ideologist in Athens and when he was absent, due to exile or legal exclusion by Athenians for taking bribes, Hypereides emerged to elequently take his place. There was no opportunity for anti-Macedonian agitation between Macedonian victory at Battle of Chaeronea in 338 B.C. and the start of the Lamia ("Hellenic") War in 323 B.C., a period of approximately 15 years.




                    You can read more about what Hyparides said at following link:
                    Hyperides, Funeral Oration: To Fallen General Leosthenes & Fellow Greek Soldiers


                    ____________________________



                    Hyperides, (born 389 bc — died 322), Athenian politician who opposed the Macedonian hegemony over Greece and was ranked as one of the greatest of the “canonical” 10 Attic orators.
                    A member of a wealthy family, Hyperides is said to have studied with both Plato and Isocrates. He began his career in the usual way, by ghostwriting speeches for others to use in the Athenian law courts. Much of Athenian politics involved bringing charges against political opponents. His first prosecution, against the prominent politician Aristophon in 363, was unsuccessful. In 343 he succeeded in driving into exile an important pro-Macedonian politician, Philocrates. After the Macedonian defeat of Athens and Thebes at Chaeronea (338), Hyperides became one of the leaders of the anti-Macedonian movement when he opposed Alexander the Great’s demand that Athens hand over Demosthenes, the major opponent of Macedon in Athens, and other anti-Macedonians. He prosecuted those who favoured cooperation with Macedon, such as Demades. In 324 or 323 Harpalus, Alexander’s treasurer, arrived in Athens with a fortune he had appropriated, which the Athenians seized. Harpalus was imprisoned but escaped, and the escape was attributed to bribery. Hyperides successfully prosecuted both Demades and Demosthenes for bribery. In 323, when Alexander died, Hyperides supported the Athenian decision to revolt against Macedon in the Lamian War and delivered the funeral oration over the Athenian dead. After the war ended with the Macedonian victory at the Battle of Crannon, Hyperides fled Athens, but he was captured and executed by Antipater, who had been appointed by Alexander as commander in Macedonia and Greece.
                    Ancient critics consistently ranked Hyperides among the best of the Attic orators. In the ancient world 77 speeches were passed down under his name, but only 50 were thought to be genuine. Except for some quotations of varying length, they were all lost in late antiquity. From 1847 to 1892 substantial fragments of six speeches were discovered on ancient papyri. The most important are fragments of his prosecution of Demosthenes (324) and his funeral oration for the dead in the Lamian War (323). In 2006 advanced imaging techniques revealed two more speeches, on 10 pages, that had been scraped from papyrus that was reused in a medieval manuscript.
                    The ancient critic Longinus, in On the Sublime, finds Hyperides strong in all the most important traits of an orator, but best in none, and thus compares him to an athlete in the pentathlon. Hyperides’ style is witty and tasteful. He used humour against his opponents, rather than the violent abuse so common among his contemporaries. A reconstruction of the fragmentary papyri texts with translation is published in J.O. Burtt, Minor Attic Orators, vol. 2 (1954).


















                    The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                    Comment

                    • The LION will ROAR
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3231

                      #70
                      In his book "De itineribus in Turciam libellus", written in 1522, the Ragusan chronicler Felix Petantius speaks about the Macedonian ethnic boundaries:
                      "Skopje is on the boundary between Dardania on the north and Macedonia on the south... And there flows the Vardar river... While Gegligovo (the Kumanovo basin), the village of Konopnica, Boboshevo (a town in present-day western Bulgaria) and the bridge of the Strymon river make the boundary that separates the Macedonians from the Triballi and Bulgars, that therefore goes through the Samokov forest, the Hemus Mountain (the Stara Planina Mountain) rivers of Maritsa and Hebrus and ends up at Philipopolis (Plovdiv) or Romania (an alternative name for Thrace)."
                      The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #71
                        The greek 's have not been around on the greek peninsula .THe Macedonians were in Macedonia for more than a millennium prior to the greeks.The greek claim of 4000 years of greek history are false.When the greeks came to Greece there were already different people around.Eg MYcenians,pelagians etc etc.Macedonians were a distinct people.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #72
                          Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post
                          In his book "De itineribus in Turciam libellus", written in 1522, the Ragusan chronicler Felix Petantius speaks about the Macedonian ethnic boundaries:
                          "Skopje is on the boundary between Dardania on the north and Macedonia on the south... And there flows the Vardar river... While Gegligovo (the Kumanovo basin), the village of Konopnica, Boboshevo (a town in present-day western Bulgaria) and the bridge of the Strymon river make the boundary that separates the Macedonians from the Triballi and Bulgars, that therefore goes through the Samokov forest, the Hemus Mountain (the Stara Planina Mountain) rivers of Maritsa and Hebrus and ends up at Philipopolis (Plovdiv) or Romania (an alternative name for Thrace)."
                          TLWR, do you have a link to that source and translation?
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • The LION will ROAR
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3231

                            #73
                            Martin Segon report to the Vatican talks about the uniqueness of the Macedonians

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            TLWR, do you have a link to that source and translation?
                            Martin Segon report to the Vatican talks about the uniqueness of the Macedonians

                            Мартин Сегон (Martinus Segonius Nouomotanus Martino Segano) бил католички бискуп на Улцин, српски писател и познат хуманист од XV век.


                            Segon Martin (Martinus Segonius Nouomotanus Martino Segano) was Catholic bishop of Ulcinj , famous Serbian writer and humanist of the XV century . Segon was born in medieval mining town of Novo Brdo ( today in Pristina District ) , in the family of John de Segonis originating from Kotor . In a city that belonged to the Serbian despot Gjuragj Brankovic and was populated by German miners Sassi , Martin was canon at St . Maria Novo Brdo . But after the fall of the city in the hands of the Turks in 1455 , he moved to Ulcinj .

                            Segon educated at the University of Padua , and in 1475 he became doctor of secular law and doctor of canon law . His works written in Latin and is the nationality e Kotoranin (nazione Catarensis), a Serb originally from Novomonta or Novo Brdo . In 1481 , Martin Segon was appointed bishop of Ulcinj , saying he has high culture and has great merit for the church . Shortly thereafter, dying in 1482 or 1486 , when met last Segon news that the family lives in Kotor .

                            At this time the Vatican was concerned by the Ottoman conquest of everything larger territories in the Balkans , and the danger of the Turks to extend to Western Europe. Therefore Vatican sends its misionari to spy Ottoman forces and their organization . In early 1480 , Pope Sixtus IV instructed the Segon traveled to the Balkans and to study the ways of meeting the Ottomans .

                            The report sends Martin Segon same year , before Gedik Ahmed Pasha to organize the attack on Otranto , a town in southeastern Italy, exceeds the basic purpose of the request and the Vatican is extremely important as the history of the Balkan peoples , and the Macedonian people . Segan in his report that the end of the XV century include history , ethnology , geography , etc. . , Representing the Macedonians as a distinct people and gives its ethnic boundaries . This report publishes his Felix Petanchikj of Ragusa ( Dubrovnik ) under the name "De itineribus in Turciam libellus".

                            However , Martin Segan was unknown as long as Milan professor Agustino Pertuzi not published his manuscript in 1981 , within his book " Martin Segon Novo Brdo , Bishop of Ulcinj " . Serbian - Dalmatian humanist end of the XV century "Martino Segono di Novo Brdo, vescovo di Dulcigno. Un umanista serbo-dalmata del tardo Quattrocento".

                            The report sent to Pope Sixtus IV (1471 - 1484) , Bishop Martin ulcinskiot Segon talks about the composition and strength of the Ottoman army , then the paths which should move the Christian army , the peoples living in the Balkans and others . From this report point out several important parts which speak of the uniqueness of the Macedonian people and its ethnic boundaries .

                            In the second chapter of this report , in the section speak for terrestrial routes in the Balkans Christian army may use Martin Segon writes :

                            " First means of Pannonia in turns in Upper Moesia at the mouth of the Sava into the Danube near Belgrade , where two separate roads : one to the upper Thrace or Romania , another lower road to Dardanians Macedonians . If you go for the top time comes to field Godomin ... and after you cross the river Morava Minor ... Branichevo through the village , beside the famous temple Resa , tomb of kings and princes known , walked to Nis ever as seen in the ruins glorious city . Today the village is reduced , and the Turks and Bulgarians settled . Remote ... Belgrade is crossing 320 thousand steps . Since then it climbs to Pirot village , situated in the hills , and after you pass steep and difficult mountain fold the Kunovice ... showing 50 miles long approach to Sofia , the capital of Triballians ... "

                            Describing how much easier the second time that begins in Belgrade and run through the territory of Dardanians and Triballians and then merges with the top after you pass Mount Ham (Balkan or Stara Planina ) , Martin Segon says :

                            " The second time is easier . It actually extends from Belgrade to the border of Moesia and Dardanians , 280 thousand steps ... first run through the Morava , which runs alongside the fortress Krusevac , ... and from there to White Church ( Kursumlija ) and Apennine mountains ( Kopaonik ) who share Moesia . Rashanite are wild and belligerent and were the first inhabitants of this province , that inhabit the area lies towards the river Drina , Sava and Istria . And ... the other part , which is turned towards Dardanians Triballians Macedonians , Serbs , people with more peaceful way of life, amiable and nice looking ... So , when you go follow Dubochica mountains , which is densely populated everywhere , but when you leave the left path to Prokuplje and Niš , widely extends Kosovica valley through which flows the river Lab , continuing the grand Kosovo Polje , celebrated by many battles of various nations ... "

                            Describing the upper border of Macedonia Segonis notes:

                            " The plane extends to about 70 thousand steps to the village and the Straits Kačanik gorge , which leads to Skopje ... The lake and swamp Horavica ( artificial lake near Ferizaj ) , after separating from the road through Binche Morava ( South Moravia ) to the mountain which lies under the Criminal Moesia and Dardania after ednodeven road from the entrance to the gorge opens entrance to Skopje , the capital of Dardanians and border of Macedonia . His action city is fertile and rich in precious fruit of the earth , full of wealth , a place where staying Heads , irrigated by the river Vardar sound that emanates from the highest peaks of the mountain range Orbelo that rises over Macedonia , Tribal , Moesia , Dalmatia and Epirus and it is suitable for collecting military. Hence , traveling ... dolonata after the Konopnica ( Krivopalanechko ) , bathroom Velbuzhd ( Kyustendil ) and bridge the Struma separating Macedonians and Bulgarians Triballians , near Red Bank , passing forests of Samokov and the vast desert of Mount Hemus (Balkan , Stara Planina ) , ... after quite a tough time down the Maritsa river or the Hebron field and to Philippopolis , where the lower path away from Skopje 230 thousand steps , coupled with the upper road that leads from the Rhodopes in the plain . "

                            The upper sub-chapter where Shar Planina , Montenegro and Skopje Osogovski Mountains are incorporated in the imaginary mountain range Orbelo can be observed that Segon used with old maps and old documents , because appointed Skopje as the capital of Dardanians , which actually comes from the early period when Dardania was a Roman province . However , Segon who was born about a hundred kilometers from Skopje knows where Macedonians live and where is the border with Macedonia . Hence , as seen , the northern border of Macedonia he sets the aforementioned mountain range Orbelo and Kačanik poses as border boundary where no one enters the territory of Macedonia .

                            Segon confirms that the old documents used in the preparation of the report . In section 6 , where the sub-chapter provides a description of Upper Moesia and Serbia, he says :

                            " This simply named Serbia and Raska , of old Mesia , lies in the edges of Europe . On the north is surrounded by three famous rivers Drina , Sava and Danube , after which it was associated with the province of Pannonia , then areas of Dacian or Vlach , east of the Rhodope mountain range and river Cibrica ( Northwestern Bulgaria) and Lower Moesia , south relies on the borders of Triballians and Dardanians or Macedonians , and the west is surrounded by mountains of Dalmatia . It is located along the Rhodopes everything to Sava and Drina 420 thousand steps , and in width , from Istria to the ends of Triballians and Dardanians 270 thousand steps . "

                            Quoting Ptolemy Martin Segon below the same sub-chapter says : " Other nations allied with the Macedonians are Serbs , who are appointed by the same author as Dardanians . And keep these cities Novum Montem or Novo Brdo , which is the capital and the capital of the area . " Hence , it is evident that the author was born in Novo Brdo in Serbia despotovina , distinguishes Macedonians in Serbia , but saying that they are related .

                            In describing this province , Segon also provides interesting data about Macedonia . Describing the rivers Black and White Dream in this part he says, " Drilon or White Drin , which springs from the mountains and the other, which comes from the lake in Macedonia near Ohrid , consists in two Dardanians Black Drin . .. " Segon recalls the Dream in sub-chapter 11 and said : " Actually Drin springs from near lake Ohrid , the Macedonian capital , and separates Dibranite , called Dardanians , the people of returns and Ematija , then Hispania and the Pilochanite Dukadzhini ends , so it comes above the other Dream dotekuva that of the nearby mountains in Moesia under Ljesh city flows into the Adriatic Sea . "

                            In its report , Segon not forget to mention Alexander the Great and his successors characterized by courage , describing the fighting spirit of the people , he says, " people who are considered very warlike , before other nations of Europe expert at extracting gold and silver of the country bent on feasting , and enjoying music in a way that Timothy , the former pesnik Alexander , famous for singing works of brave heroes and encourages young people to bear all difficulties . "

                            In this part of the report sent to Pope Sixtus IV, Catholic Bishop of Ulcinj Segon Martin , who himself has declared that Serbian origin clearly defined Macedonians as a distinct people , distinct from Serbs and Bulgarians , but also related with the Serbs , which it sees the origin of Slavic Macedonians . Also in this section that outputs the northern border of the ethnic Macedonians , which extends from the Sar Mountain , Montenegro and Skopje Osogovski Mountains , and also tells us that in the XV century town of Ohrid Macedonian .

                            The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                            Comment

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