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Old 02-28-2016, 04:12 AM   #1
Liberator of Makedonija
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Post Iron Maiden "Alexander the Great" (1986)

While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.
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Old 02-28-2016, 04:17 AM   #2
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I rely on iron maiden for all my perspectives on life. Prior to them, I thought the number of the beast was an old girlfriend of mine.
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Old 02-28-2016, 04:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.
pre 1988 greece stance was that Macedonians dont exist, there is no Macedonians no Greek Macedonians the Ancient Macedonians all got killed off and that only northern greeks in Macedonia, that was their stance, after 1988 they become Greek Macedonian
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.
Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:55 AM   #5
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Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.
that is bullshit

greek man before 88: you are not macedonian, macedonians dont exist and died long time ago

greek man after 88 : you are not macedonian , because im macedonian and im greek

your propaganda took a big turn after yugoslavia was looking to break up.
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Toska View Post
pre 1988 greece stance was that Macedonians dont exist, there is no Macedonians no Greek Macedonians the Ancient Macedonians all got killed off and that only northern greeks in Macedonia, that was their stance, after 1988 they become Greek Macedonian
So they believed the Ancient Macedonains were Greek but died out along with the name Macedonian and refused to accept Macedonians calling thsemselves that because it went against their theory?
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:30 AM   #7
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Who do you refer to as "they" the sheep or the political propaganda machine?

Notice that our Greek member used "denies"

Deny - state that one refuses to admit the truth or existence of.

They refuse to admit the truth.
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:21 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.
Whatís going on Amphipolis, have you suddenly lost the plot? That is the height of arrogance right there. You go on a Macedonian forum, a site owned and run by ethnic Macedonians and you post shit like that.

Naturally, our views are, and always will be, opposed but, generally speaking, your comments have tended to be in the spirit of this forum.
Whatís with the sudden change in tone?

Hereís a reminder of Rule 5 of this forumís Rules and Regulations: Negating the identity, language and culture of the Macedonian people by deliberate avoidance of the terms Macedonia, Macedonian and Macedonians, or by any other means, is not permitted.

No one is forcing you to acknowledge the existence of the Modern Macedonian Nation by being on this forum but donít make the mistake of insulting us with blatant pig-headed Greek Fascist attitudes such as that which you openly display from time to time.

My guess is that you have taken exception to what Macedonians have identified as a change in Greek tactics that is clearly measureable as of the year 1988. I would go so far as to say that the Macedonian diaspora has had a role to play in this sudden change in Greek tactics. All those Macedonian demonstrations during the late 1980ís in Australia against the Fascist policies of Greece would have opened the eyes of Greek authorities of the danger the Macedonian issue posed to the Greek myth of the 99.999% homogenous Greek state. Something had to be done and they did it by coming out and saying, okay we admit it, weíve got Macedonians in Greece but they are Greek Macedonians. No Skopjans here, just Greek Macedonians. The beginning of disinformation about the Macedonian Minority in Greece had begun. The aim of which was to create confusion and a diversion away from the real issue at hand Ė the national rights of the Macedonians in Greece. And that year was 1988.

Interestingly, you donít hear of Macedonians complaining that Greeks have decided to suddenly call themselves Greek Macedonians. Good for you I say. As a matter of fact, I donít think we would mind if the Bulgarians, Serbs or the rest of the Balkans decided to call themselves Macedonians. Iím sure most Macedonians would agree: thatís fine by us.

Your comrade Poligiros asked the question on another thread ďwhy do nationalistic Macedonians have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic?Ē Itís not a question of dislike or hate of the Greeks. Itís a question of respect. And the answer to Poligirosí question lies in your comment above. The day you Greeks learn to respect Macedonians for who they say they are, regardless of whether you believe it is baloney or not, is the day that maybe we can start mending a few bridges. Until then, please mind your tone. I think that is all any Macedonian will ask of you and your comrades.

Who gives a toss if Greece denies that the Macedonians are a nation in their own right? Belonging to a certain national group is not a matter for Greece to approve or sign off on. Itís called self determination that all nations are entitled to.
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Old 02-28-2016, 12:14 PM   #9
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The first sentence of post#1 misrepresents Greece’s position. That is a problem.

Then the author (Liberator of Makedonija) even says his description is of course established. That’s a bigger problem.

Toska’s descriptions are not better. They’re partly incomprehensible and later (probably) refer to what a Greek guy told him in an Australian bar.

The sure thing is I live in Macedonia and I can’t speak of Australia. The correct position of Greece is the one I wrote (as shortly it can be presented in 1 Ĺ line). That’s if anyone’s interested.

This is an older post (and the conversation around it) of how I remember the political climate of the 1980s.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...7&postcount=48

Greeks don’t call themselves Greek Macedonians, unless they live in Macedonia. In that case they call themselves Macedonians. Now, if someone is in a TV debate abroad (e.g. in Australia) he might use the term “Greek Macedonian” in an explanatory manner. In the same manner you would probably clarify and emphasize that you’re an “ethnic-Macedonian”. At least that’s what Voskopoulos does in Greece or abroad.
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.
Its unfortunate that Iron Maiden aren't keen on performing this song due to the backlash regarding the lyrics .

Lets get something clear. We never said Macedonians didn't exist prior to 1988. My understanding of the historical position is that the Macedonians (who many reputable historians claim ancestry from Dorian Hellenes) were assimilated into the other Hellenic/Byzantine tribes. Therefore, northern Hellenes are remnants of the Byzantines and therefore, Macedonians.

You are taking the words out of context, you know fully well that the Hellenic republic are claiming that Alexander is Greek in terms of being "King of Greece", unifying the Greek city/states and spreading Hellenistic culture to the east. "In a part of ancient Greece In an ancient land called Macedonia (as the song suggests)". Therefore, the Hellenic republic claim Alexander is exclusive of your type of Macedonian!

Unfortunately, from what I have been told in this forum, a Hellene cannot be Macedonian, because we do not practice the modern Macedonian culture and can only be one or the other?
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