"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

Vlachs don’t believe they are the descendants of Pericles, but they do have some of their own bizarre beliefs. According to most of the Vlach authors, they claim they did not come recently (during Ottoman Empire) from Romania, but they have been nomads, always moving around Western Balkans since antiquity.

Speaking of bizarre -

Konstantinos Tsioulkas, in 1907. wrote "Contributions to the bilingualism of the Macedonians through a comparison of the Slav-seeming Macedonian language with Greek" (Tsioulkas 1907). Tsioulkas was born in Gorenci (after 1919 renamed to Korisos/Κορησός). Per Tsioulkas:

- The goal of the book was to show how the so-called Bulgarian language in Macedonia was in reality a Greek and not a Slavic language;
- Tsioulkas did not attempt to demonstrate and prove that this language was not "Macedonian", but to show that it was not Bulgarian.

We should add G. Boukouvalas to this who in 1905. wrote a book titled "The language of the Bulgarian-speakers in Macedonia" where he is arguing that the language of the Macedonians is a "mixture" of Greek and Slavic. Contrary to him, Tsioulkas is actively arguing and proving that the Slavophone Macedonians are Greeks since their language is Greek in a genetic sense, and origin. Tsioulkas states:

"The modern so-called Slav-seeming Macedonian is in fact Macedonian and the sister of Greek, and consequently the Macedonian people is autochthonous and of genuine Macedonian blood".

http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/php/pdf_page...pagenobottom=3

[tchaiku]

The provinces which the Greeks formed a majority of the inhabitants were divided into six pahaliks of high rank and many smaller districts governt immediately by inferior pashas.
1.The most iportant....of the Islands and of the part of coast of Greece....Cyprus Rhodes and Mytilene...
2.The pashalik of Morea.....
3...4...
5.The pashalik of Selanic ,or Thessalonica,extending over the greater part of Macedonia...
6The island of Crete.."

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin

Speaking of bizarre -

Konstantinos Tsioulkas, in 1907. wrote "Contributions to the bilingualism of the Macedonians through a comparison of the Slav-seeming Macedonian language with Greek" (Tsioulkas 1907). Tsioulkas was born in Gorenci (after 1919 renamed to Korisos/Κορησός).

There's an extended discussion about Tsioulkas here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ight=tsioulkas

I have also added my opinion when my name was Thessalo-niki and later Sweet Sixteen.

[Carlin]

1) The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:

"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."

Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

2) The 10th century "Byzantine" anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythi-Slavs'."

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'."

Who were these Scythians and/or Scythi-Slavs? What happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air at some later stage of history? Were they exterminated fully? One thing seems evident - whoever these 'Scythians' were, they settled into Peloponnese lands and regions that were (already) largely empty. (If not, these 'Scythians' exterminated or drove out whatever locals they found.)

3) Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).

Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:

i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.” In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas, the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”

If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese, one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world.

ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.

iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.

[tchaiku]

.................................................. ........

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin

1) The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:

"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."

Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

This isn't so. The full text (which is quite short) can be found here. Many references to Greeks, separate ones to Maniotes and Tzakonians. I can't see any Vlachs here either.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A5...;view=fulltext

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

I have also added my opinion when my name was Thessalo-niki and later Sweet Sixteen.

Wow, I knew you and Sweet Sixteen were the same person but you were also Thessalo-niki?
Looks like you always find your way back in, you seem devoted to remain a part of this forum in one form or another.
To what do we owe this persistence?

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

This isn't so. The full text (which is quite short) can be found here. Many references to Greeks, separate ones to Maniotes and Tzakonians. I can't see any Vlachs here either.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A5...;view=fulltext

Interesting.

[tchaiku]

I know a Greek who can trace her roots for 200 years in Thessaloniki.

[tchaiku]

Apparently, during the 18th century a large number of Ottoman subjects spoke Vlach at home, but its use gradually diminished. Linguist Gustaf Weigand who studied the Vlachs extensively around 1980 mentions that "a large number of the ‘pure Greeks’ of Thebes, Serres, and Thessaloniki’ are pure Vlachs.35 There were Vlach speakers from the south of Karditsa to the west, Agrafa mountains and Eurytania province who lost their language in the 19th and 20th centuries.36 In Peloponese, where Vlachs had emigrated from northern points, the Vlachs also were assimilated in the local population. (Sometimes Vlach place names remind us of the earlier language.)37 Some Meglenites were converted to Islam in the 18th century and went to Turkey, while others identified with Bulgarians and went to Bulgaria. The people who still spoke Vlach in the 20th century were mainly isolated mountaineers who married among themselves.

35 p. 313. Educated Vlachs of Serres belonged to the Greek party and lost the language (p. 261).

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm