"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by momce

My view of the vlachs is they are not related to the Romans at all........

Perhaps not so much genetically, but linguistically, they're without a doubt related to the Romans.

they might be part of a pre-Latin substrate that was in the area like the Italo-Illyrian bridge...........

They speak a Romance language derived from Latin, which is in turn derived from Italic. As far as I know, there is very little to connect the Vlach language with Illyrian.

the Albanians may be a similar output of the Illyro-Thracian bridge

I doubt it. If their language is anything to go by, the Albanians are the most heterogeneous group in the Balkans.

......both seem to be somwhat related to Romanians which are part of the same phenomenon..

Vlach and Romanian are both eastern Romance languages, whereas a significant portion of Latin loanwords in Albanian come from eastern Romance.

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

More on the Vlachs and Albanians in Morea (Peloponnese), specifically Mani.

The writers do provide interesting facts, such as:

- The term Mani and/or Maniates is most likely of Latin origin and derivation. It comes from the word 'manus', meaning hand (by the way, the word for hand is more or less the same in modern Vlach dialects and Romanian).
- Many Vlachs and Albanians settled in the Peloponnese, in repeated waves. Most came from the northern regions: Epirus and Thessaly.
- All of Mani is full of Albanian and Wallachian (Vlach) names.
- Part of the customs in Mani are Albanian.
- A disastrous famine of 746 AD destroyed the population throughout the Peloponnese.

(Please let me know if you want me to post additional pages from this book. It can be accessed in Google Books.)








PS:

This is a copy & paste from a newsgroup that is no longer available. I was able to save the info a while back (I did not make any editing to the text below). Some of the comments are from Constantine Buhayer (University of Westminster, London).



2 points:
If one assumes that many of the Greeks of Crimea were Ellinovlachi,
then the following historical item hints at their mercantile power and
national aspirations (even though this apparently covers mostly
Ioannina Greeks):

The author was Athanasios Petros Psalidas (1767-1829). Born in
Ioannina where he studies at the famous school of Balaton.

In 1792 he wrote a pamphlet in Vienna.

He describes the visit Catherine paid to her new acquisitions from
the Ottoman Empire, in Nizni and Tauria. Psalidas argues that the
hidden purpose of her visit was to liberate the Greeks. These are his
arguments: When she arrived at the palace gate of Niznan she was
stopped/welcomed by Archmandrite Dorotheos (an islander Greek)
who addressed her, praised her and compared her to Pallas Athena.
Her route had been lined by the local Greek merchants with oranges,
lemons (trees?), bread and salt, all produce of Greece to remind her
of who was behind the gesture. Dorotheos finally offered the cross to
her lips and thus made her bend forward and kiss it. They then
proceeded into the palace where the local Greek merchants,
dressed in their finest attire were waiting for her. Again, she was
praised and called upon to free and earn the eternal gratitude of
those Greeks enslaved by the Turks.

Psalidas tells us that most of the Greeks were from the region of
Ioannina, and that after the liberation of the city in 1784, it had
attracted various nations, including Greeks from the Peloponnese.
Furthermore, one of the liberating battalions consisted of Greeks
under Major Kostis of Ioannina (it was he who prepared the route
with oranges, etc). Psalidas says that many of those men were
promoted up the ranks, thereby, he argues preparing them to lead
an army and liberate the Greeks.
-----------------------------

Also, and uniquely (and that is the point) in the Greek world, why is it
that the term 'Vlachos' as well as describing a constituent groups of
the Hellenic people, also describes a pastoral Greek life style,
irrespective of regional affiliations. No other term of constituent
groups - Sarakatsanos, Makedonas, Kerkiraios, a.s.o - became such
a generic term. More so, I am not aware of a similar transference in
the (Western) English or (Western) French languages.
Of course, Vlachos is also used as a critical term by city dwellers.
But in this case, the word Athinaios can be a term of insult in Patra
and Thessaloniki, and the term Peloponnisios harbours no good will
when used in Macedonia.
As for 'Vlachopoula', I have only come across it as a term of
endearment from male to female. Likewise for 'Karagounitsa' but not
'nisiotisa' or 'protevousiana', aso.

Best
Constantine Buhayer
University of Westminster
London

http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/pub...ay/003688.html

http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/pub...ay/003691.html

C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk wrote:

> [snip]
>
> Also, and uniquely (and that is the point) in the Greek world, why is it
> that the term 'Vlachos' as well as describing a constituent groups of
> the Hellenic people, also describes a pastoral Greek life style,
> irrespective of regional affiliations. No other term of constituent
> groups - Sarakatsanos, Makedonas, Kerkiraios, a.s.o - became such
> a generic term. More so, I am not aware of a similar transference in
> the (Western) English or (Western) French languages.
> Of course, Vlachos is also used as a critical term by city dwellers.
> But in this case, the word Athinaios can be a term of insult in Patra
> and Thessaloniki, and the term Peloponnisios harbours no good will
> when used in Macedonia.
> As for 'Vlachopoula', I have only come across it as a term of
> endearment from male to female. Likewise for 'Karagounitsa' but not
> 'nisiotisa' or 'protevousiana', aso.
>
>

Some further reflections on the ubiquitous nature of Vlachs and
Arvanitovlachs (Karagouni) south of Thessaly and the Helladic Mainland and
across the Corinth canal.

In passing, I would like to add a footnote on the underinvestigated question
of Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs of Moreas (Peloponnese),

The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers
in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel
in Morea shortly after the War of Independence (1821). He specifically
makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate
language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him
that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains
(I believe that the evidence points in the direction of Arcadia) [Cousinery
H.E.M., _Voyage dans de la Macédoine_, Book I. Paris, 1831, p.18; cited in
Koukoudis, A, _The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora_, Zitros Publications,
Thessaloniki, 2000 (in Greek)]

There is also the unresolved issue of the widespread Sklabhnika, Armanika,
Arbanitika kai Latinokeltika (Slavonic-like, Vlach/Armiîn, Albanian, and
Latin-derived) toponyms particularly in Arcadia, a subject of tempting
speculation...

Aside from the obvious Vlachokerassia and Arvanitokerassia, toponyms like
Asanoi, Arachouva, Atsicholo, Baltetsi, Baltesiniko, Belimaki
[Mpelimatsioi], Berbaina [akin to Varbeani], Blongo, Garzeniko, Granitsa,
Dimitsana, Drestena, Nemnitsa (Nimnitsa), Palumba, Roinou, Saltozi, Sopôto,
Stemnitsa and so forth, raise legitimate questions as to Vlach and/or
Arvanitovlach presence particularly in the central and southeastern areas of
Peloponnese (including the region referred to as Tsakonia -- point of
reference: Leonidion)

[Swkrath N. Liakou: Ermhneia Ebdomhnta Sklabhnikwn Topwnumiwn ths Arkadias
(me tis Latinikh Keltikh Arbanitikh Armanikh), Mikroeurwpaikes (Balkanikes)
Meletes 13, Qessalonikh, Iounios, 1981]

Besides, the ingrained notion of a slavonic derivation attached to a
plethora of toponyms in Lacônia is also subjudice calling for a critical
reappraisal to assess the extent to which these might have a latin-based (as
opposed to slav-based) derivation, suggesting a putative Vlach/Arvanitovlach
link.

In the first place, the unresolved saga of Millingi in Mani comes to mind.
It is noteworthy that Millingi inhabited the inaccessible regions of Mt
Taygetus and Mt Parnôn, particularly the latter. But, as a rule, the
mountainous route of migration (or escape) would be more typical for the
fleeing indigenous populations, as compared to the settlements of invaders
who would tend to be more agrarian.

Incidentally, the purported Slavonic origin of the word Millingi is
questionable and so is the attendant implication that the Millingioi, i.e.,
the inhabitants, represented in fact, bona fide Slav tribes. In this
regard, one does not have to concur with Georgaka's interpretation [D.
Georgaka. _The Medieval Names Millingi and Ezeritae of Slavic Groups in the
Peloponnesus_. Byzantinische Zeitschrift, 1950, Munchen, pp. 43 49], in the
same way that one does not have to accept a priori Fallmerayer's assertions
[Ph. Fallmerayer, _Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea wahrend des
Mittelalteres_, Stuttgart, Tubingen, 1830-1836]], which have been
perpetuated by the old German school of Anthropology [Max Vasmer, _Die
Slawen in Griechenland_, Berlin, 1941: 87].

To the extent that the word Millingi may have a Latinate derivation [see J.
G. Th. Graesse _Orbis Latinus_ (2nd edition), Richard Carl Schmidt & Co.;
Berlin 1909], a possible medieval Vlach/Arvanitovlach origin of the term
should also be entertained.

The once rebellious Millingi, fought alongside with fellow 'Byzantine'
Greeks (i.e., Cynurians and other Arcadians and Lacônians) in the abortive
assault headed by Michael I Komnenos Doukas (despot of Epirus), against the
Franks (Venetians) in Messênia.

There are many signposts of Millingi in the Mt. Parnôn area, including
'Zygos tou Meligou', 'Dromos tou Miligou', 'Meligitika Kalubia' and, near
Agios Iôannis, the 'Meligou' or 'Meligoun' as is referred to by
(S)Phrantzês.

C.D.K.

PS. Last but not least, let us not forget the Moraitiko traditional song
"Mia Vlacha Vlachopoula, Arvanitopoula..."

[momce]

Originally Posted by George S.

these people the vlachs behaved themselves unlike the albanians who wanted the whole of macedonia for themselves.I don't think there was any resentment of the vlachs & macedonians ,has there ever been any?

There is something of tension in "modern greece". I think its cause vlachs have almost no traditions of their own they are more interested in becoming greeks whereas Macedonians are sceptical about most things and love their own things.

[momce]

It reminds me how hollow, superficial and impoverished greek nationalism(any form of nationalism?) really is. No wonder it has such mass appeal.

[momce]

I think the socio-economic linguistic analysis here is critical also which usually gets lost in modern mass homogenisation processes, i.e"nationalism", largely a construct of a small power group. Interesting from the above readings seems the "greek revolution" was something of an "outward" sham. Question: why was there a need to create the modern greek myth?

[momce]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Perhaps not so much genetically, but linguistically, they're without a doubt related to the Romans.

They speak a Romance language derived from Latin, which is in turn derived from Italic. As far as I know, there is very little to connect the Vlach language with Illyrian.

I doubt it. If their language is anything to go by, the Albanians are the most heterogeneous group in the Balkans.

Vlach and Romanian are both eastern Romance languages, whereas a significant portion of Latin loanwords in Albanian come from eastern Romance.

What about quasi-unclassified dead languages like Messapic, Mysian etc?

[Carlin]

Kostis Palamas in 1901. stated the following:

«Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».

"Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality ROMANS."

Many modern Greeks, like Palamas above, were very much aware what their true national name was: and this name is Romans (and Romans = Romaioi = Armani/"Vlachs").

[Eden]

Carlin, were the vlachs of Greece the descendants of romanized greek population? Or they were the results of migrations?

[Carlin]

I would say that most Greek Vlachs subscribe to the "theory" that they are Latinized native (Greek) populations. This may be true to a certain degree, however, I disagree with it (this theory is a relatively modern creation of Greek scholars/historians). I believe the Vlachs of Greece and Balkans in general are a by-product of Roman empire, numerous migrations, settlements, population transplantations, and intermingling among various ethnic elements.