Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

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  • Prolet
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 5241

    #31
    Onur, I understand what you mean about the Army, i can say for Macedonia during the Jugoslav era everybody went in the army and if you dont go to the army and do military service they would consider you as a weak person lets say you are not a man to say the least, however now its changed when you loose trust in the Governments then there is nothing to fight for.

    Israel is the same, i've spoken with people from there and they say you are treated as a hero if you are in the army more then being a Doctor or a Lawyer for example if you are a high ranked officer in the Army you are like a god to them. I couldnt believe it, i guess they look at things differently since they are surrounded by people who hate them.

    I got a friend who has been in Germany for the past 2 years, they got some Nato project where soldiers go there from Macedonia and train,live,take commands in the German Language i couldnt believe him when he told me that it was a piece of cake for him as he says that the German soldiers are not obliged to obey every command, in the Macedonian Army you cant go unshaved while the German soldiers dont have to shave if they dont want to. He told me that the Macedonian army is more disciplined and srict then the German army, i thought he was joking but he was dead serious.
    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

    Comment

    • Onur
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 2389

      #32
      Originally posted by freifrau View Post
      Well Germany used to be maybe the most militarized spot on Earth (Medieval times,Prussia,Kaiser's era-WWI,Nationalsozialismus era) ...
      so it used to be like that here too for 1000 years.

      I am really glad it is not anymore...and i wouldn't be proud if it was otherwise.

      Well, i can understand you but you have to consider that your country`s ideological transformation didn't happen by the wish of German people. Western powers transformed your country cuz they thought that your nation is too dangerous to them. So, current Germany is not created by Germans but by Russians, British and USA.

      Also, patriotism or nationalism are some kind of taboo in Germany anymore since Germans usually cannot think those two concept as separate from racism. I believe Germany is still the one and only hard working and the most powerful country in Europe but unfortunately after WW-2, you guys don't even have a national pride because you are not allowed to and your richness becomes useful for French and EU or for Greeks nowadays, instead of yourself.

      Comment

      • freifrau
        Banned
        • Sep 2010
        • 89

        #33
        Originally posted by Onur View Post
        Well, i can understand you but you have to consider that your country`s ideological transformation didn't happen by the wish of German people. Western powers transformed your country cuz they thought that your nation is too dangerous to them. So, current Germany is not created by Germans but by Russians, British and USA.
        You are right, after the war the transformation and of course the division of Germany was not completely a choice of the German electoral body.
        I say not completely because ,of course Nazi Germany was defeated in the war and many people supported the Nazis, but there were also millions of people who disliked and hated this regiment and many more who were tired of the war...and even many ex-followers who were disappointed and realized how bad was this story for the country.

        But do you still believe that de-militarization and a more free democratic society here today is forced upon UK or the Soviets??


        Also, patriotism or nationalism are some kind of taboo in Germany anymore since Germans usually cannot think those two concept as separate from racism. I believe Germany is still the one and only hard working and the most powerful country in Europe but unfortunately after WW-2, you guys don't even have a national pride because you are not allowed to and your richness becomes useful for French and EU or for Greeks nowadays, instead of yourself.
        Nationalism is the other face of Racism,wether you understand it or not.

        Comment

        • julie
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 3869

          #34
          Nationalism is the other face of Racism
          Interesting I tend do disagree.
          Nationalism and racism are not alike.
          Racism is judgmental to others and an intolerance for others, whereas with nationalism , its more of a case of national pride in ones own race, country etc,
          "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

          Comment

          • freifrau
            Banned
            • Sep 2010
            • 89

            #35
            Originally posted by julie View Post
            Nationalism is the other face of Racism
            Interesting I tend do disagree.
            Nationalism and racism are not alike.
            Racism is judgmental to others and an intolerance for others, whereas with nationalism , its more of a case of national pride in ones own race, country etc,
            This pride needs a justification and the justification declares or more usually implies the superiority upon other -surrounding or not- nations.

            This superiority is not always connected with blood or even with power.
            z.b. "we have right" , "we always go on war for a good cause" , "we are more ancient" , "we are more decent" etc

            Comment

            • fyrOM
              Banned
              • Feb 2010
              • 2180

              #36
              Crikey is that money he is dropping on her head. You’d want to get more than a song for that.

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #37
                Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                This pride needs a justification and the justification declares or more usually implies the superiority upon other -surrounding or not- nations.

                This superiority is not always connected with blood or even with power.
                z.b. "we have right" , "we always go on war for a good cause" , "we are more ancient" , "we are more decent" etc
                Without nationalism, a logical conclusion is that all nations will disappear.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • freifrau
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 89

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  Without nationalism, a logical conclusion is that all nations will disappear.
                  Ethnic groups existed before the rise of nationalism as an ideology.

                  What new nationalism has brought, is the fantastic elements of a nation ,the mythical aspects of it.

                  Real traditions were preserved without people being nationalistic.
                  Last edited by freifrau; 09-15-2010, 04:45 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #39
                    Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                    Real traditions were preserved without people being nationalistic.
                    But real traditions have been eradicated by nations. My people come from a place that is now part of Greece. The nationalism in Greece over the last 100 years has not allowed my people to maintain their traditions. Therefore it is safe to say that these people are victims of Greek nationalism. By not meeting the Greek nationalism with opposition in the Republic of Macedonia ... a similar fate will probably eventuate. So, in this modern age, my opinion is that some form of nationalism is essential to maintain one's traditions and ethnic identity.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • julie
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 3869

                      #40
                      RTG , a good factual example.
                      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                      Comment

                      • freifrau
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 89

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        But real traditions have been eradicated by nations. My people come from a place that is now part of Greece. The nationalism in Greece over the last 100 years has not allowed my people to maintain their traditions. Therefore it is safe to say that these people are victims of Greek nationalism. By not meeting the Greek nationalism with opposition in the Republic of Macedonia ... a similar fate will probably eventuate. So, in this modern age, my opinion is that some form of nationalism is essential to maintain one's traditions and ethnic identity.

                        Well...so you are telling me that nationalism (the Greek ) eradicated real traditions!
                        What if noone was really nationalistic...?
                        Profoundly the tradition would be maintained!

                        Comment

                        • Onur
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2389

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          Without nationalism, a logical conclusion is that all nations will disappear.

                          Thats absolutely correct. If there is no nationalism nor patriotism among people in a certain state, then this means that these people would turn out to be extremely individualist and only thing which connects them to their state would be economy, in short the money. Things would be fine as long as the majority of people have a decent life with relatively good income but if that certain state goes into some kind of economical crisis, then people would feel no guilt to abandon their own county to live a better life in elsewhere.




                          Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                          Nationalism is the other face of Racism,wether you understand it or not.
                          You just confirmed my observation about German people. I told you that you guys cannot manage to think these two concepts as separate ideas




                          This pride needs a justification and the justification declares or more usually implies the superiority upon other -surrounding or not- nations.

                          This superiority is not always connected with blood or even with power.
                          z.b. "we have right" , "we always go on war for a good cause" , "we are more ancient" , "we are more decent" etc
                          If nationalism brings some kind of competition in your opinion then why don't you think about having a competition within your state? You don't have to show a superiority towards others. If you desperately wanna race then race with your nations history, compare your current level of superiority with your nation`s past.

                          Also, comparing yourself with others is not that bad as you say. You don't have to hate, discriminate or kill others to show or prove your values. You can try to beat others in an ideological and cultural way or maybe even economically. You don't have to eradicate others. Also if you do that, then with whom you gonna race with?

                          Comment

                          • freifrau
                            Banned
                            • Sep 2010
                            • 89

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Onur View Post
                            If nationalism brings some kind of competition in your opinion then why don't you think about having a competition within your state? You don't have to show a superiority towards others. If you desperately wanna race then race with your nations history, compare your current level of superiority with your nation`s past.

                            Also, comparing yourself with others is not that bad as you say. You don't have to hate, discriminate or kill others to show or prove your values. You can try to beat others in an ideological and cultural way or maybe even economically. You don't have to eradicate others. Also if you do that, then with whom you gonna race with?
                            Onur..this kind of "competition" does not really need any ideological support that implies a nation is braver,more intelligent or more innocent.
                            zb Scandinavian countries have done it really well -they have a really high level of quality of life and social care- without any need of nationalistic competition!

                            And another question...do you agree with the opinion German nationalists have for the millions of Turkish immigrants in Germany?

                            Comment

                            • julie
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2009
                              • 3869

                              #44
                              In terms of nationalism freifrau, surely you cant be serious in using the analogy of the social structure of Scandinavian countries with Macedonia? Last time I looked, these Scandanavian countries were not partitioned, suppressed and had acts of genocide committed against the "minority" groups to suppress and eradicate the culture and identity.
                              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #45
                                Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                                Well...so you are telling me that nationalism (the Greek ) eradicated real traditions!
                                What if noone was really nationalistic...?
                                Profoundly the tradition would be maintained!
                                I think you are talking about a perfect world. The Balkans are not perfect. Nor is most of the rest of the world. Perhaps Scandinavia has it right. I honestly do not know enough about the region. But Macedonia would not exist if it abandons a healthy form of nationalism.

                                Are you saying myths and collective beliefs have no part of ethnic identity? What does contribute to ethnic identity?
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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