Ghost on the throne by James Romm

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  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    #61
    Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
    @ Bill77:

    I believe you are saying that for some unexplained reason the Germans and the British were able to entice or force a varied collection of unrelated tribes to speak another language and assume an entirely different culture totally alien from their own.
    Oh no....there is an explanation. You see..... geographically, it was important the west controlled this land which was the arss end of Europe surrounded by "strategically" very important waters (for the Bavarian King it was more a fantasy thing, a romance he had with this "Ancient Greece" thing but to his shock, discovered the land of what was once "Ancient Greece" was nothing like what he read about and Athens was just a Albanian speaking village, no Pericles, Demostenisa or Socrates walking the streets.....only Ahmed, Saban and Nedzad)

    So they Created this new independent nation and like a Godfather, they named it "Greece". Only one problem, to have a nation called "Greece" you need Greeks. This is when Ahmed, Saban and Nedzad were taught "you are sons of Pericles, Demostenisa and Socrates"

    Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
    It is an extraordinary supposition. If it is true, the results were amazingly successful
    What do you mean "IF"?????

    Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
    a unified modern Greek State with a dominant language
    Yeh they had to chop and change from one version to another to get it right. Apparently the original form was to hard so they reverted them back to the bastardised form.
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • Mistracona
      Banned
      • Oct 2012
      • 87

      #62
      Bill77 writes: "Only one problem, to have a nation called "Greece" you need Greeks."

      After the Risorgimento, the war that led to the unification of Italy, the Prime Minister Count Camilo di Cavour turned to the political leader Giussepi Mazzini and said, "We have created Italy, now we have to create Italians."

      We agree (relentlessly) that modern Greece, like all nations, is an artificial construct, a national identity forged from multi-ethnic roots, like all nations. Britain, Germany, France and Russia all played key roles at the baptism.

      My question remains as to how the multitude was cajoled into changing their language and speaking Greek. No small achievement.

      Greece was much more important to Britain, a naval power, than to small, land-locked Bavaria.

      And Greece remains a critical piece of real estate:

      It is a founding member of NATO and the wealthiest trading Union in the world. The "fingers" of the Greek peninsula thrust into North Africa and the Middle East. The long and protected waters of Souda Bay where a critical NATO base is located "can hold all the navies of the world" according to one strategist, and it is from there that many NATO planes took off in the Libya campaign. Greek islands dot and fill the eastern Mediterranean. The Greek sister-state (and fellow EU member) of Cyprus is a key towards large oil-producing states, Israel which is a critical country to the US, and the volatile Middle east.

      If you read and listen to the media, you will know that the eyes of the entire world are focused on the financial crisis in Greece. The tide is turning, and the first steps towards the creation of a modern state have been taken.

      In the EEZ zone of Cyprus (and offshore western Greece), large reserves of gas have been confirmed and the slow process of extraction is under agreement with Israeli and American companies.

      The godfathers of the newly-forged and totally artificial nation were certainly right. Greece was a very valuable piece of real estate, indeed.
      Even more so today.

      (If you are going to respond about the uselessness and evil of NATO and the impending collapse of the euro and the EU. There's no need. I've heard it.)

      All the best from me, Bill77.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3810

        #63
        Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
        Bill77 writes: "Only one problem, to have a nation called "Greece" you need Greeks."

        After the Risorgimento, the war that led to the unification of Italy, the Prime Minister Count Camilo di Cavour turned to the political leader Giussepi Mazzini and said, "We have created Italy, now we have to create Italians."

        We agree (relentlessly) that modern Greece, like all nations, is an artificial construct, a national identity forged from multi-ethnic roots, like all nations. Britain, Germany, France and Russia all played key roles at the baptism.

        My question remains as to how the multitude was cajoled into changing their language and speaking Greek. No small achievement.
        Katharevousa wasn't invented for nothing. Plus bi-lingualism was big in the Balkans. Which is how the Vlachs cornered the mercantile markets. So back to square one Milti. You acknowledge the artificiality of your nation. So then you realize joining this forum to argue against certain historical truths about antiquity ends the charade that you practice what you preach. Macedonia is not "greek" and it never was.
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

        Comment

        • Mistracona
          Banned
          • Oct 2012
          • 87

          #64
          TrueMacedonian writes: "Katharevousa wasn't invented for nothing. .. You acknowledge the artificiality of your nation. So then you realize joining this forum to argue against certain historical truths about antiquity ends the charade that you practice what you preach. Macedonia is not "greek" and it never was."

          Katharevousa was an attempt to artificially alter the language of the people which was Demotic Greek. It failed. All nation states including Greece and The Republic of Macedonia are social constructs or "artificial."

          I do not claim that The Republic of Macedonia or the territory it occupies is "Greek" or ever was.

          I did not join the forum to "argue against historical truths" but rather to argue for them.

          Cheers,

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #65
            Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
            Katharevousa was an attempt to artificially alter the language of the people which was Demotic Greek. It failed. All nation states including Greece and The Republic of Macedonia are social constructs or "artificial."
            Please elaborate. Since when (in your opinion) has The Republic of Macedonia became "artificial." Do you mean just the state? or the people living in it aswell are "artificial" Macedonians. I don't quite understand what you mean.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #66
              Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
              Katharevousa was an attempt to artificially alter the language of the people which was Demotic Greek. It failed.
              What do you mean by "alter"?
              It failed when? Wasn't it 1976?
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Mistracona
                Banned
                • Oct 2012
                • 87

                #67
                @Bill77:

                I mean that the nation state is a political unit of identity that originated in the 18th century, that before that collective identity differed, that it consisted at various times as an identity of tribe, or language, or city-state or religion or other, and that all nations - excluding none to my knowledge - conform to the general pattern of nation-state construction and composition.

                If you know of reasons why the Republic of Macedonia does not belong to the general pattern of nation-state construction, I would be glad to know them for my own benefit.

                Thanks,

                Comment

                • Mistracona
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 87

                  #68
                  @ Risto the Magnificent:

                  To the best of my knowledge, the creation of Katharevousa had the following intentions: it was an attempt to impose on the "vulgar" Greek tongue of the people a totally artificial construction of syntax and vocabulary belonging to the long-dead "classical" Greek. Politically, I suspect it was in part related to the misguided attempt to perpetuate the falsity that modern Greeks were directly connected to the ancient Greeks thus ignoring the two thousand years of history in-between. It was also intended to "purge" the Demotic Greek spoken by the people from all the Turkish, Slavic, Albanian and other foreign vocabulary and "syntactical intrusions" (my term).

                  I don't know if there was a specific date when katharevousa "failed", but it never caught on among the people. It was for a time the form used by certain educated circles. The well-established and "vulgar" Demotic spoken by the people swept away any hope for Katharevousa.

                  What is your information? I would be glad to know it.

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #69
                    I am only Magnificent in bed, but you will never find this out Mistracona. RtG is fine.

                    I believe Katharevousa was abandoned in 1976 or 1977. To suggest it failed is to deny the impact of over 100 years of shaping of the modern Greek language into some sort of ancient artificial resurrection of sorts.


                    Originally posted by Mistracona
                    I don't know if there was a specific date when katharevousa "failed", but it never caught on among the people. It was for a time the form used by certain educated circles. The well-established and "vulgar" Demotic spoken by the people swept away any hope for Katharevousa.
                    Are you suggesting it had no influence Mistracona? You seem to be.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Mistracona
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 87

                      #70
                      Katharevousa may have officially been declared defunct in the 1970s. I simply don't know. I know that it was attached to conservative and right-wing political elements, and that the left was against it and always espoused the "language of the people."

                      To the best of my knowledge, the remnants of Katharevousa can immediately be seen in some elements of written Greek, most obviously, in shop signs that designate their wares in Katharevousa forms. I would suspect that some katharevousa influence remains in the written and possibly spoken lsngusge, my knowledge of Greek is limited.

                      Most, if not all, nation states, have "tinkered" with the national language in one way or the other, most recently Germany objecting to alternations like elimination of the "double s" and the separation of long composite nouns. France, of course, has L'Academie Francaise as the official linguistic watchdog, proposing and eliminating.

                      It stands to reason that Greece fits the same pattern.

                      My understanding is that academics or political forces or both have had some input into the structure of the Macedonian language within recent years, so the pattern seems to be universal among nation states.

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #71
                        The structure of the literary Macedonian language was entirely a composite of various dialects throughout Macedonia. No introductions of archaic forms of the language and no revisionism. Trying to equate that with the Greek Katharevousa experiment is laughable. Katharevousa did introduce many new (old) words in the 19th century.

                        The Macedonian language was standardised in the 1940's. I do not think that fits into your "recent years" but still do not see the relevance. How can you even begin to compare?

                        I believe the Katharevousa experiment strikes at the heart of the modern Greek identity. They barely had an identity other than religion and this Katharevousa process was the binding force that helped create this modern nation of various former ethnicities.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Mistracona
                          Banned
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 87

                          #72
                          I yield to your superior knowledge of the Macedonian language. No contest.

                          I did not at all equate the "standardisation" (your term) of the Macedonian language with the incursion of Katharevousa's archaic forms into demotic Greek, so there's no need to laugh in that respect. I said that throughout all nation states political forces have to whatever extent influenced national tongues. I take your statement that Macedonian was "standardised" (a broad term with multiple definitions) as an example proving my point.

                          Your statement that the Greeks had no "Greek" identity other than that introduced my katharevousa itself is belied by the fact that the katharevousa experiment did not succeed, primarily because it clashed with the spoken Demotic Greek of the population which absorbed elements of it.

                          It is rather extravagant (to say the least) to argue that Greek identity was formed recently by the creation of an artificial language experiment which was abandoned (officially in the 1970s as you state).The evidence to the contrary is abundant and overwhelming:

                          In his writings in the 15th century, Gemistos Plethon repeatedly refers to himself and the others as "Greeks" (Ellines) as opposed to "Romans". In Villhardouin and Joinville's Chronicles of the Morea in the 12th century, the inhabitants of those lands are referred to as the "Greeks." The Romans of the West called the Empire in the east "The empire of the Greeks." The 16th century Cretan poet Vitsenzios Kornaros refers to himself and his people alternately as "Christians" and "Ellines". Kornaros, like Plethon before him, is, of course, writing in the "Greek" (elliniki) tongue and refers to that language by that name.

                          The poetry that became the Greek national anthem "The Hymn to Liberty" refers to "Ellinon" and speaks of a Greek identity, was written before the creation of the state and was written in Demotic by Dionysos Solomos who knew no Katharevousa at all.

                          Revolutionary fighters for Greek independence like General Makryiannis had no knowledge at all of katharevousa. Makryiiannis himself was illiterate and had to dictate his autobiography in his native Demotic Greek. It is celebrated in modern Greek literature and considered a testament of the spoken Greek of his day.

                          It is easily to be confused by the history of a people whose use of the same evolving, living language stretches over almost 4 thousand years and who, like other people (Belgians, French, Britons, English, Americans, catholics, Sicilians, Italians, Romans, Prussians, Lutherans, Germans, Anglicans, Bulgarians, Macedonians and many, many others) had different appellation for themselves at different points in their history.

                          The Greek-speaking "Byzantines" referred to themselves as "Romans" for many years and distinguished themselves from the "Ellines" which they called the non-Christian writers of their tongue's literature. Their language was alternately "Romaica" and "Ellinika" without distinction.

                          The designation "Romios" existed, and to an extent still exists, in Greece for many years as a concomitant definition of "Ellinas" just as today in Greece a "Macedonian" means a Greek and nothing else.

                          Comment

                          • Mistracona
                            Banned
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 87

                            #73
                            @ Risto:

                            I forgot to thank you for your challenging and interesting posts. I learned something from our lively exchange and that, I think, is the whole point of these things.

                            Comment

                            • Mistracona
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 87

                              #74
                              Regarding the evolution of national identity, how many Slavic-speaking people thought of themselves as Macedonian in 1700, in 1800, in 1900 and in 2000?

                              Comment

                              • TrueMacedonian
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 3810

                                #75
                                Mistracona why don't you start a different topic regarding national identity if you're willing to "teach" us

                                Here's more from James Romm's "Ghost on the throne"

                                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                                Comment

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