Macedonians in the East Roman Empire

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  • Bratot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2855

    #46
    It's said that Slavs raid Crete in 623, so how can be that this Slavic presence can't be applied in same ways for the both sides?

    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

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    • TrueMacedonian
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3810

      #47
      According to NGL Hammond the Slavs settled quite a few islands. The theory that you would find "pure" descendents of ancient hellenes in the islands is another myth. Corfu is a perfect example of a multi-racial island.
      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #48
        Originally posted by Bratot View Post
        It's said that Slavs raid Crete in 623, so how can be that this Slavic presence can't be applied in same ways for the both sides?

        http://history.heraklion.gr/backgrou...vel=2&sid=2329
        Exactly the point. Just as much Slavs, if not more, invaded the area known as today's Greece. What needs to be considered is that in ancient Europe, the Thracians were the 'largest population', in medieval Europe, the Slavs were the 'largest population'. The distance between these two groups in the linguistic sense would probably be akin to the distance between Balts and Slavs today, the Thracian language did not disappear, it just evolved with a new linguistic layer from a distant, yet related element. This is also why the Slavonic tribes that settled in Macedonia and Thrace were able to assimilate into the local population within a relatively short period of time as opposed to the tribes that travelled as far south as the Peloponnese. Indeed, while the Morean Slavs were still trying to stake their claim, the Slavonic tribes that had integrated Macedonians and Thracians were already soldiers and loyal citizens of East Rome.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #49
          With the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, an old conflict between Greece and Macedonia has taken on added significance for the international community. The genesis of the conflict is detailed here, as well as the modern-day events that have led many observers to believe that the area is a flashpoint for a major war.




          The above can serve as clear evidence of the continued reference to people of Macedonia Proper as Macedonians (along with those of the Macedonia Theme).
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #50
            I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians............

            The above was written by John Cametinae. Check the below:


            Thessaloniki, one of the largest cities of the Byzantine empire in the early tenth century, was captured and pillaged in 904 by a Muslim force led by Leo of Tripoli. The following account of the short siege comes from John Kaminiates, who was captured and taken as a prisoner with his father and brothers. He wrote a letter to Gregory of Kappadokia while he was in captivity, concluding it around the end of September 905.
            From the above link, here is an interesting excerpt from the text:

            They (Muslims; My Note) swooped down with their ships towards those points which had been described to them, letting out harsh and savage cries and rowing furiously in the direction of the wall. And banging on rawhide drums, they raised a fearful din, and they tried with many other kinds of bluff to frighten the defenders on the battlements. But those who were manning the wall shouted back even louder and invoked the aid of the saving weapon of the cross against the enemy forces. And they did this to such an effect that the barbarians, at the sound of so many people uttering a cry more fearsome than any they had previously heard, were dazed for a while and did not expect to achieve anything. Estimating the numbers of the citizens from the loudness of their shouts, they concluded that it would be no easy matter to enter the fray against such odds and to sack so great a city, the like of which they had never seen. Nevertheless, in order not to create the impression of having lost their nerve at the start of their offensive, they advanced neither fearlessly, nor with the rage which they later displayed, but with a certain blend of frenzy and fear, protecting themselves against their opponents by means of a barrage of missiles. Then their approach became more reckless and they strove to bring the fighting nearer, rousing themselves to fury like barking dogs and thoroughly enraged by the weapons that were hurled down at them from the wall. The citizens (of Salonika: My Note), in fact, were anything but remiss in their use of archery, and used it to great and conspicuous effect by stationing all the Sklavenes [a southern Slav peoples] gathered from the neighbouring regions at those points from which it was easiest to shoot accurately and where there was nothing to deflect the momentum of their missiles.
            There they are again, the Christians used 'their' neighbouring Slavs as archers - The Slavs, Macedonians, defenders of Salonika against the Muslim attack and Leo the turncoat (who converted to Islam at some stage). Note that there were no neighbouring 'Greeks' to send for.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #51
              This is the first comprehensive and up-to-date history of Byzantium to appear in almost sixty years, and the first ever to cover both the Byzantine state and Byzantine society. It begins in A.D. 285, when the emperor Diocletian separated what became Byzantium from the western Roman Empire, and ends in 1461, when the last Byzantine outposts fell to the Ottoman Turks. Spanning twelve centuries and three continents, the Byzantine Empire linked the ancient and modern worlds, shaping and transmitting Greek, Roman, and Christian traditions including the Greek classics, Roman law, and Christian theology that remain vigorous today, not only in Eastern Europe and the Middle East but throughout Western civilization. Though in its politics Byzantium often resembled a third-world dictatorship, it has never yet been matched in maintaining a single state for so long, over a wide area inhabited by heterogeneous peoples. Drawing on a wealth of original sources and modern works, the author treats political and social developments as a single vivid story, told partly in detailed narrative and partly in essays that clarify long-term changes. He avoids stereotypes and rejects such old and new historical orthodoxies as the persistent weakness of the Byzantine economy and the pervasive importance of holy men in Late Antiquity. Without neglecting underlying social, cultural, and economic trends, the author shows the often crucial impact of nearly a hundred Byzantine emperors and empresses. What the emperor or empress did, or did not do, could rapidly confront ordinary Byzantines with economic ruin, new religious doctrines, or conquest by a foreign power. Much attention is paid to the complex life of the court and bureaucracy that has given us the adjective "byzantine." The major personalities include such famous names as Constantine, Justinian, Theodora, and Heraclius, along with lesser-known figures like Constans II, Irene, Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer, and Michael VIII Palaeologus. Byzantine civilization emerges as durable, creative, and realistic, overcoming repeated setbacks to remain prosperous almost to the end. With 221 illustrations and 18 maps that complement the text, A History of the Byzantine State and Society should long remain the standard history of Byzantium not just for students and scholars but for all readers.




              Treadgold comes to a slightly different conclusion, minimizing the effect that the Slavs had during the siege. Cametinae, a contemporary and witness to the events, clearly has a different account.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #52
                SoM, your attention to detail is yet to disappoint!
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians............

                  The above was written by John Cametinae. Check the below:




                  From the above link, here is an interesting excerpt from the text:



                  There they are again, the Christians used 'their' neighbouring Slavs as archers - The Slavs, Macedonians, defenders of Salonika against the Muslim attack and Leo the turncoat (who converted to Islam at some stage). Note that there were no neighbouring 'Greeks' to send for.
                  Could "Slav" be a reference to non-Christians or pagans?

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #54
                    Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                      Could "Slav" be a reference to non-Christians or pagans?
                      The term 'Slav' could have meant multiple things during the same period in history, such as a Pagan at the beginning of the invasions in many cases. However, we must also allow for later references to persons like 'Thomas the Slav' and 'Andrew Craterus', who would most definetly be Christians. Personally, I consider 'Slav' more a developing identity as a result of linguistic awakening, for, while the Thraco-Illyrians may well have had only a vague idea of their affinity with the Danubian Slavs, after the 6th century this commonality was more pronounced and acknowledged.
                      Originally posted by Risto the Great
                      Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?
                      This is most plausable, generic terms were broadly applied, Thracians, Getae, Scythians, Slavs, etc. The fact is, in ancient times there was a population that was considered the largest in Europe and lived in the same territory as the largest linguistic group in Europe today. There can be no dispute as to who are the descendants of the Thracians.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #56

                        George Ostrogorski, History of the Byzantine State.

                        George Ostrogorski, History of the Byzantine State.

                        Here is a 'Bulgar-centric' view of Bogomilsm on Wiki, some information is of value to confirm events.



                        Bogomilsm took a hold of the Macedonian population in the decades just prior to the rebellion of Samuel and establishment of his empire.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #57
                          Who was Basil of Ohrid, that became Archbishop of Salonika and was a staunch supporter of the division between the Eastern and Western Churches? I haven't found anything yet that elaborates much, only brief citations such as in the links below:

                          The first great city to which the Crusaders came in 1096 was not Jerusalem but Constantinople. Almost as much as Jerusalem itself, Constantinople was the key to the foundation, survival and ultimate eclipse of the crusading kingdom. The Byzantines had developed an ideology over seven hundred years which placed Constantinople, rather than Rome or Jerusalem, at the centre of the world. The attitudes of its rulers reflected this priority, and led to tension with the crusaders over military and diplomatic strategy. At the same time, the riches and sophistication of the great city made a lasting impression on the crusaders. In the end, the lure of the city's wealth was fatal to the claims of Christian unity. In April 1204, the Fourth Crusade under the Venetian doge Enricho Dandolo captured and sacked Constantinople, signalling the effective end of almost a thousand years of Byzantine dominance in the east.

                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Bratot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2855

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            Surely it is not a silly idea to consider the theory that Slav in a medieval context is simply Thracian in a historical context?
                            Herodotus in his History wrote:

                            "The most populated area after India, is Thrace. If they were under one rule and of one mind, they would have been the mightiest people on earth. But the unity of these peoples have never been achieved, that's the weakest point of the Thracians. They take different names by the area they live around, but they all have common customs and traditions".




                            Thracian Glossary.


                            Sources:
                            1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
                            2. Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
                            3. Georgiev, V. Ezyk na trakite.
                            4. Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.
                            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              #59
                              Perboundos

                              Mark Whittow presents a clear, up-to-date reassessment of the Byzantine empire during a crucial phase in the history of the Near East. Against a geopolitical background (superbly illustrated with fourteen maps), his book covers the last decade of the Roman empire as a superpower, the catastrophic crisis of the seventh century, and the means whereby the embattled Byzantine empire hung on in Constantinople and Asia Minor until the Abbasid Caliphate's decline opened up new perspectives for Christian power in the Near East.A special feature is Whittow's coverage of Byzantium's neighbors, allies, and enemies in Europe and Asia. He stresses the geographical context of events, often overlooked in other accounts of this period. The origins of Russia, relations with the nomad powers of the steppe world, the competition between Bulgars, Romans, and Slavs in the Balkans, and the frequently ignored region of the Transcaucasus are all given extended treatment. No such wide-ranging work has appeared in English for nearly 30 years, and Whittow's book will be invaluable for all scholars, students, and enthusiasts of medieval history.



                              page 269








                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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                              • TrueMacedonian
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 3810

                                #60
                                Perbundus

                                External Threats

                                Hearing of his father's assassination, Constantine IV immediately set sail for Sicily and arrived shortly after the rebellion of Mizizius had been put down. During the winter, he was able to reassert imperial authority over the troops and in the spring he brought them back to Constantinople. The first major threat that Constantine faced was the advance of the Arabs. Building upon gains made during Constans II's reign, Mucawiya attacked Sicily, North Africa, and Anatolia. Soon, it was clear to the emperor that Mucawiya was focused on bringing his forces to bear against the capital city of Constantinople itself. In 670 Arab naval forces occupied Cyzicus and established a base for future attacks against the city, and in 672 captured Smyrna. In 674 the Arab fleet began its assault upon Constantinople. With the emperor's attention focused on the Arabs, the Slav chieftain Perbundus made plans to capture Thessalonica. When Constantine learned of Perbundus' plans, he had him executed. The Slavs, angered by the execution, still attacked the city and laid siege to it.

                                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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