Greek policeman arrested over immigrant muggings

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  • Stojacanec
    Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 809

    #31
    etr, you have compared greece's GDP to Macedonia and come up with your multipliers. But at what cost?? For every one dollar you make you lose two. Great form!!

    Again you are boasting about how great greece is compared to Maceodia but your whole reason for the name dispute is that our small and insignificant country (sic) has territorial aspirations to your northern province.

    That is a cotradiction of terms.

    I am glad to know that you recongnise us for what we are. But most of the modern greeks have a different agenda.

    Comment

    • momce
      Banned
      • Oct 2012
      • 426

      #32
      and without annexing Macedonia greece would be more insignificant then it is now...i believe greece will have problems holding on to these regions as the rationale for doing so is quickly eroding

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        #33
        what we need is a revolt from the people in all parts of macedonia then perhaps a real change might take place.The people will have to act first.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • momce
          Banned
          • Oct 2012
          • 426

          #34
          things have to be properly organised

          Comment

          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            #35
            Originally posted by EricTheRed View Post
            To answer your question,in theory it would take many more years than Macedonia. But do you seriously think Macedonia can be free of debt in 3 years?? Yes I seriously do! To my knowledge, not even China or Germany(major export economies) can ever be completely free of debt. How could Macedonia or Greece ever do that?By not borrowing from their masters and taking matters into their own hands instead of relying on handouts! Your point was that Greece has rly lots of debt, something I dont deny, since without it we wouldnt be in this place. It would be fruitless trying to deny it!

            For a peaceful solution to be achieved, first of all the goals should be determined. For a peaceful solution to be achieved both parties need to start from a position of mutual respect & on an equal footing! I had made a seperate thread asking specifically about Aegean Macedonia, where I saw reasonable answers. But roaming the forum I took notice that those here who dream of annexations etc may as well be more than the reasonable fellows. Many are blinded by hatred and bad-will towards Greece. While it may be justifiable, it wont get us anywhere. True, but until Greece treats Macedonia with mutual respect and commences down the same path on a level playing field, then there will always be hatred and disrespect!

            When I read posts about how easily a country can supposedly disappear, coming from people who really wish for it to happen, without seeing the broader picture, I have to post a reasonable answer to their wet dreams. Perfectly acceptable response.

            Remember: in this certain thread, it was Macedonians who wished for Greece to disappear, and NOT vice versa. I think the view from that perspective relates to Greece disappearing as a solution to the discrimination/racism/social genocide that the Macedonians have suffered and continue to suffer, e.g. if the limb cannot be saved then cut it off for the sake of the rest of the body.

            So I propose:the Macedonians should first of all decide whether they want Greece to be destroyed or reasoned with, and then the Greeks will reply accordingly. That proposal is flawed and doomed to fail, the first stage in any negotiation is a mutual respect that allows negotiation to start from an equal point, for both parties. Thats the first basis of a solution in any dispute, The "dispute" wording is incorrect, it is more of a "veto" or prevention than a dispute, if the ability to remove the veto power was removed, then the parties would be closer to starting from an equal footing understanding each side's target.
            This is not about "targets" or "goals" for the Macedonians it's about the right to self determination - a right enshrined in the international charter of human rights, until this basic human right is acklnowledged and allowed then there can be no fair negotiaions from an equality perspective, which dooms the entire process to failure.
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

            Comment

            • Dejan
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 589

              #36
              Originally posted by makedonche View Post
              This is not about "targets" or "goals" for the Macedonians it's about the right to self determination - a right enshrined in the international charter of human rights, until this basic human right is acklnowledged and allowed then there can be no fair negotiaions from an equality perspective, which dooms the entire process to failure.
              This!
              You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

              A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

              Comment

              • makedonche
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2008
                • 3242

                #37
                Originally posted by Dejan View Post
                This!
                Thanks Dejan, it's astounding that something so obvious and simple as this hasn't yet registered with most Greeks! Still that is to be expected from a country in denial.
                On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                Comment

                • momce
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 426

                  #38
                  erictheredgreek youre a goof...we dont negotiate our own land, Macedonia, we dont negotiate our own house with thieves and travelling salesmen from the greek ministry of tourism history...we wont give greece the pleasure of negotiating with it..greece has no influence and power..its a paralytic mirage
                  Last edited by momce; 12-11-2012, 03:13 AM.

                  Comment

                  • EricTheRed
                    Junior Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 41

                    #39
                    Its true that Greece right now has much more costs than income. However, the deficit has actually been reduced, and a small primary surplus will be achieved in 2013-14. Greece already signed first class deals with Cosco and HP. Piraeus will be the port China will use to expand into the Mediterrenean and Europe. Dont write Greece's survival off yet.

                    George, this revolt cannot happen for a number of reasons:

                    1. In Aegean Macedonia, Macedonians are today the minority, 200.000-300.000 max, while Greeks number up to 2.000.000. And this estimate is the most favorable to Macedonians, because they might actually be a lot fewer.

                    2. You failed to get the true meaning of my comparisons. Most of the Macedonians currently living in Greece have, even now, better living standards than Macedonians living in RoM. In the event that they suddenly became citizens of Macedonia, their income would be reduced even more than now.

                    3. Except for a small percentage of uber-patriots, do you believe the average Macedonian living in Greece will take up arms against the state? Its not like they live in occupied territory, check Florina/Lerin out. While its true that Macedonian could be taught at schools etc(I keep stating that I agree with catering to the needs of Macedonians in Greece), claiming that mass murders and stuff like that happen today is unrealistic. My point is:the Macedonians arent that much oppressed to revolt.

                    A revolt is not gonna happen because of these reasons. Lets assume however that a revolt does take place. It will fail because of the following reasons:

                    1. Macedonians are a minority right now. The revolt would mostly be constrained to areas near the borders between Macedonia and Greece, far away from the industrial centers of Northern Greece. So, the economy will not be that hard-hit.

                    2. The Macedonian army is simply unable to invade another nation, revolt or not. Rebels may be able to take hold of towns and villages, but can they hold them in the long-term?

                    3. The Greek army is still far more powerful than anything any Balkan country can deploy(I dont count Turkey as a balkan country, since its greatest mass is in Asia).

                    Let me tell you how these events would unfold. The revolting Macedonians would just take over some villages within some hours, disarming the few policemen there. And that happens in the event that the Greek state is taken completely by surprise. Even then, the forces positioned near Florina will immediately respond. There will be total news blackout. The 3rd Army Corps(Greece's second strongest military formation, being a NATO Rapid Deployment Force) based in Thessaloniki will reach these areas within 1 day at most. Unless the Macedonian army comes in as a whole to help all rebels retreat into Macedonia, its going to be very quick.

                    If you think that it will be like in Syria and Libya, with NATO and EU involvement, check again. Greece, as a member of these organizations, will actually be reinforced by NATO. BBC and CNN will report about how Macedonia was the first in so many things: first to invade a NATO member, first to invade an EU member, first to invade a member of both organizations! Macedonia will be presented as the aggressor, the rebels immediately linked to her. And no1 likes the aggressor.....

                    It will be a slaughter, and a very quick one, for Macedonians. RoM itself could be in trouble later, since declaring a war to Greece means that automatically Macedonia declares war to the entire NATO and EU(its in the treaties). The point of NATO is to deter any country from attacking any of its members. Macedonia will provide a good example to what happens when declaring war to NATO and the EU, since the country doesnt have any nuclear weapons. And dont even think that Greece will be condemned. Citizens in every EU country believe that due to the Union's existence the threat of war has been averted. The EU will be hard pressed to justify its presence, if it cant defend a single member. In order to avoid that, the EU's greatest supporters, the Germans and French, will demonstrate why you cant just attack an EU member.

                    And all the above will happen if Greece's EYP, US CIA,British MI5 etc fail to uncover the revolt(there is an 99,99% chance all info regarding a possible Macedonian revolt will be in Greek hands months before it actually happens).None but god can protect the Macedonians in Greece if that happens....

                    Yep, the whole point of this long post is:
                    A revolt would be an extremely stupid course of action.

                    Comment

                    • Stojacanec
                      Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 809

                      #40
                      OK etr stop wasting valuable kilobyte space telling us about the military power of greece. There won't be a revolt from ROM. But greece has many problems. Problems that I cannot see correcting for generations. Actually I think the economy is shrinking to its real potential.

                      The deceit and lies about the country's balance sheet has been uncovered. New stringent compliance would ensure this not reoccurring in the future.

                      The standard of living will drop to what I think is the true level for the country.

                      Tough austerity measures. The blame game is rifle, hence why golden dawn are rising to supremacy. This isn't good on any diplomatic level.

                      If there is a revolt, it would come from within and not outside. Just look at similar pressures elsewhere in Europe, Catalonia, Corfu, Crete, Scotland.

                      Europe is known as a basket case and guess which eu member country is at the top of the tree?

                      So indepencence may not mean to annex with rom but to become an independent state.

                      Comment

                      • momce
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 426

                        #41
                        im positive inroads can be made in the Aegean Macedonia

                        Comment

                        • momce
                          Banned
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 426

                          #42
                          Originally posted by EricTheRed View Post
                          Its true that Greece right now has much more costs than income. However, the deficit has actually been reduced, and a small primary surplus will be achieved in 2013-14. Greece already signed first class deals with Cosco and HP. Piraeus will be the port China will use to expand into the Mediterrenean and Europe. Dont write Greece's survival off yet.

                          George, this revolt cannot happen for a number of reasons:

                          1. In Aegean Macedonia, Macedonians are today the minority, 200.000-300.000 max, while Greeks number up to 2.000.000. And this estimate is the most favorable to Macedonians, because they might actually be a lot fewer.

                          2. You failed to get the true meaning of my comparisons. Most of the Macedonians currently living in Greece have, even now, better living standards than Macedonians living in RoM. In the event that they suddenly became citizens of Macedonia, their income would be reduced even more than now.

                          3. Except for a small percentage of uber-patriots, do you believe the average Macedonian living in Greece will take up arms against the state? Its not like they live in occupied territory, check Florina/Lerin out. While its true that Macedonian could be taught at schools etc(I keep stating that I agree with catering to the needs of Macedonians in Greece), claiming that mass murders and stuff like that happen today is unrealistic. My point is:the Macedonians arent that much oppressed to revolt.

                          A revolt is not gonna happen because of these reasons. Lets assume however that a revolt does take place. It will fail because of the following reasons:

                          1. Macedonians are a minority right now. The revolt would mostly be constrained to areas near the borders between Macedonia and Greece, far away from the industrial centers of Northern Greece. So, the economy will not be that hard-hit.

                          2. The Macedonian army is simply unable to invade another nation, revolt or not. Rebels may be able to take hold of towns and villages, but can they hold them in the long-term?

                          3. The Greek army is still far more powerful than anything any Balkan country can deploy(I dont count Turkey as a balkan country, since its greatest mass is in Asia).

                          Let me tell you how these events would unfold. The revolting Macedonians would just take over some villages within some hours, disarming the few policemen there. And that happens in the event that the Greek state is taken completely by surprise. Even then, the forces positioned near Florina will immediately respond. There will be total news blackout. The 3rd Army Corps(Greece's second strongest military formation, being a NATO Rapid Deployment Force) based in Thessaloniki will reach these areas within 1 day at most. Unless the Macedonian army comes in as a whole to help all rebels retreat into Macedonia, its going to be very quick.

                          If you think that it will be like in Syria and Libya, with NATO and EU involvement, check again. Greece, as a member of these organizations, will actually be reinforced by NATO. BBC and CNN will report about how Macedonia was the first in so many things: first to invade a NATO member, first to invade an EU member, first to invade a member of both organizations! Macedonia will be presented as the aggressor, the rebels immediately linked to her. And no1 likes the aggressor.....

                          It will be a slaughter, and a very quick one, for Macedonians. RoM itself could be in trouble later, since declaring a war to Greece means that automatically Macedonia declares war to the entire NATO and EU(its in the treaties). The point of NATO is to deter any country from attacking any of its members. Macedonia will provide a good example to what happens when declaring war to NATO and the EU, since the country doesnt have any nuclear weapons. And dont even think that Greece will be condemned. Citizens in every EU country believe that due to the Union's existence the threat of war has been averted. The EU will be hard pressed to justify its presence, if it cant defend a single member. In order to avoid that, the EU's greatest supporters, the Germans and French, will demonstrate why you cant just attack an EU member.

                          And all the above will happen if Greece's EYP, US CIA,British MI5 etc fail to uncover the revolt(there is an 99,99% chance all info regarding a possible Macedonian revolt will be in Greek hands months before it actually happens).None but god can protect the Macedonians in Greece if that happens....

                          Yep, the whole point of this long post is:
                          A revolt would be an extremely stupid course of action.
                          nonsense greek military is garbage, training sucks they pretty much sit around all day play cards and drink coffee some of them are in our area small detachments they made me sick never wear the same uniforms unshaven bad weapons handling etc garbage
                          Last edited by momce; 12-14-2012, 07:44 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Peshoshnitsa Lerin
                            Junior Member
                            • Jun 2012
                            • 85

                            #43
                            Mate if we don’t revolt in the very near future Greece will just keep wiping out Macedonian history in Egej and brainwashing our children, we can take back Macedonia from the enemy, OUR homeland and God is the only one we need! Sloboda ili Smrt we will always be with Macedonia ! Don’t count to much on your economic bullshit ETR we will free our land! Karma will get yous, people cant sin all there lives and not get punished!

                            Comment

                            • momce
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 426

                              #44
                              exactly lerin the only way to solve Macedonia problem is straight independance
                              Last edited by momce; 12-14-2012, 09:30 AM.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                #45
                                you guys don't mince words it's never too late for a good old revolt in macedonia.It's about time it did happen.Our enemies are having a field day with us & we are just foolhardy enough to beleive their bs.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

                                Comment

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