Mixed Martial Arts / Boxing Thread

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, Madina zbora nogu.....Zelenio ke go stolchi ako se sretna' pak.

[Prolet]

Danny Green is a hard hitter and his tupajnca on Roy Jones Jr is worth every cent, Who wants to see 12 rounds of action with both fighters holding back and hoping for the judges to rule in their favor. I'd rather see one round of good fighting with some clean punches landed rather then holding and grabbing for 12 rounds. I remember Kostya Tzuy winning in the second round against Zab Judah he knocked the crap out of him and Judah was in Disney Land.

SOM, Both fighters will make a tone of money if they go in the ring together, Mundine is very quick but Danny Green is a strong hitter so i cant dispute what you are saying.

[Risto the Great]

Can't say I have seen them all but Tyson was an absolute zhivotno in his day. Watch his documentary.

[Spartan]

The only thing with Tyson though, is did he ever beat a good boxer??
Alot of his wins were vs no-namers in my opinion.

Lost to Buster Douglas ( who can hardly be considered a 'good' fighter)
Lost to Holyfield twice
Lost to Lennox Lewis (twice too, i think).

No doubt that in his prime he was a devastating puncher, but did he ever win a fight that went past 3 rounds?

Personally, I think that on their best day, Ali and Lewis were better heavyweights.
There is even an argument to be made for Evander I would think.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Spartan

The only thing with Tyson though, is did he ever beat a good boxer??
Alot of his wins were vs no-namers in my opinion.

Lost to Buster Douglas ( who can hardly be considered a 'good' fighter)
Lost to Holyfield twice
Lost to Lennox Lewis (twice too, i think).

No doubt that in his prime he was a devastating puncher, but did he ever win a fight that went past 3 rounds?

Personally, I think that on their best day, Ali and Lewis were better heavyweights.
There is even an argument to be made for Evander I would think.

If you notice, most if not all of Tyson's loss' come from after his admitted drug use, and resulting in his famous ear biting incident with Real Deal Holyfield. Tyson was the youngest Heavyweight champion at 19 I believe and the reason his fights never lasted more than 3 rounds was because he hit you like a freakin truck. Holyfield was a great boxer as well.

[Spartan]

The earbiting was Tyson - Holyfield 2. In Tyson-Holyfield 1, Tyson was the overwhelming favorite, yet was bullied, and beaten to a pulp badly by Evander, resulting in a 9th(I think) round TKO and a huge upset.
I'll never forget that fight. Evander came with a gameplan, and executed it to perfection, smothering Tyson in the process. He was in control for the whole fight, and didnt give Tyson a moment to breath.

He was still regarded as a top fighter prior to this fight. After... well we all know how that story ends.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, just to clarify:

Lost to Buster Douglas ( who can hardly be considered a 'good' fighter)

That was Tyson's first ever professional loss. The fight was staged in Japan, and in the months of preparation Douglas trained for his life and gave it everything he had. Tyson didn't even lift a rope, preferring instead to keep the company of his Asian lady friends rather than his training crew (which by this time was nothing but a pathetic little clique of followers and blood-suckers pretending to be his 'brothers'). In fact, by this point he probably hadn't put in any decent training for the previous few fights also. All the people that got Tyson to where he was were eventually dropped because of his 'brothers' (which included his 'brother' Don King). Now, I am not sure if you have done boxing before, but I can tell you something, if you are not fit enough to be in the ring it doesn't matter how good of a fighter you are, stamina will prevail 99% of the time. Tyson had no stamina. If you watch the fight, he even dropped Douglas at one point, which was highly controversial as the referee was suspected to have given Douglas more time than allowed to get back up. Shortly afterwards, Douglas dropped Tyson, and the rest is history.

What happened to Douglas afterwards? He did what Tyson did, and did not carry out a decent minute of training, so when he came up against Holyfield, he was slaughtered. Big difference there too, Tyson lasted well into the fight and still managed to floor Douglas, whereas Holyfield absolutely mauled Douglas.

Lost to Holyfield twice

These are both after his prime, and if he didn't turn animal in the second one, I think he would have taken Holyfield out.

Lost to Lennox Lewis (twice too, i think).

Again, after his prime. Lewis would have suffered the same fate as Bruno if he fought Tyson a few years earlier.

No doubt that in his prime he was a devastating puncher, but did he ever win a fight that went past 3 rounds?

Yes, of course he did, and some even went the distance, although few could. Being an up and coming heavyweight during Tyson's era would not have been comfortable, even if you were a gun, in all likelihood he would have knocked your head off. The suggestion that there was nobody good to beat is one usually made by people who dislike Tyson as a person, forget about that part of his life, looking solely from a sports perspective, he is pound for pound the most ferocious figher that ever lived, the type that would make big hitters like Sonny Liston and George Foreman think twice. I mean, take Michael Spinks for example, this guy was a promising fighter coming up the ranks and divisions, undefeated, considered by many to be a great figher ----- Mauled by Tyson in about 90 seconds. That has to be one of the most devastating fights ever, and I am sure even the worthy contenders and aspiring champs were trembling at that sight. On that night, Tyson was KING.

Just watch what he does to another great fighter and champ (I promise it will take little of your lifetime):
Tyson vs Spinks - 1st Round Knockout - YouTube

BANG!!! -- He made great fighters look like amateurs, and good fighters look like they shouldn't be in a ring.

Personally, I think that on their best day, Ali and Lewis were better heavyweights.

Ali was up there, but take a boxing enthusiasts advice, Lennox Lewis does not even rank in the top 10 best heavyweights of all time, let alone pound for pound. The other 'Lewis', Joe Louis, was a legendary fighter too, he would definetly rank in the top 10 great heavyweights and probably overall too.

There is even an argument to be made for Evander I would think.

If some things in his career went differently then maybe, but they didn't, and he lost some fights that he shouldn't have lost, which cost him.

For your further perusal:

Bruno destroyed the first time
YouTube
Bruno destroyed the second time
YouTube


Spartan, I stand by my sentiment; pound for pound, Iron Mike is the most devastatingly clinical and overwhelmingly powerful fighter there has ever been. In his prime, i'd back the guy against a bear, lol.

[Spartan]

Mar. 6 -- Hector Mercedes, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
Apr. 10 -- Trent Singleton, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
May 23 -- Don Halpern, Albany, N.Y., KO 4
June 20 -- Rick Spain, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
July 11 -- John Alderson, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 2
July 19 -- Larry Sims, Poughkeepsie, N.Y., KO 3
Aug. 15 -- Lorenzo Canady, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 1
Sept. 5 -- Michael Johnson, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 9 -- Donnie Long, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Oct. 25 -- Robert Colay, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
Nov. 1 -- Sterling Benjamin, Latham, N.Y., TKO 1
Nov. 13 -- Eddie Richardson, Houston, KO 1
Nov. 22 -- Conroy Nelson, Latham, N.Y., KO 2
Dec. 6 -- Sammy Scaff, New York, KO 1
Dec. 27 -- Mark Young, Latham, N.Y., KO 1


1986
Jan. 10 -- Dave Jaco, Albany, N.Y., TKO 1
Jan. 24 -- Mike Jamison, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 5
Feb. 16 -- Jesse Ferguson, Troy, N.Y., W DSQ 6
Mar. 10 -- Steve Zouski, Uniondale, N.Y., KO 3
May 3 -- James Tillis, Glen Falls, N.Y., W 10
May 20 -- Mitch Green, New York, W 10
June 13 -- Reggie Gross, New York, TKO 1
June 28 -- William Hosea, Troy, N.Y., KO 1
July 11 -- Lorenzo Boyd, Swan Lake, N.Y., KO 2
July 26 -- Marvis Frazier, Glen Falls, N.Y., KO 1
Aug. 17 -- Jose Ribalta, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 10
Sept. 6 -- Alfonzo Ratliff, Las Vegas, KO 2
Nov. 22 -- Trevor Berbick, Las Vegas, TKO 2
(Won WBC Heavyweight Title)

1987
Mar.7 -- James Smith, Las Vegas, W 12
(Won WBA Heavyweight Title/Retained WBC Heavyweight Title)
May 30 -- Pinklon Thomas, Las Vegas, TKO 6
(Retained WBA/WBC Heavyweight Titles)
Aug. 1 -- Tony Tucker, Las Vegas, W 12
(Won IBF Heavyweight Title/Retained WBA/WBC Heavyweight Titles/Became Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion)
Oct. 16 -- Tyrell Biggs, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 7
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)


1988
Jan. 22 -- Larry Holmes, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 4
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
Mar. 21 -- Tony Tubbs, Tokyo, Japan, TKO 2
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
June 27 -- Michael Spinks, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)


1989
Feb. 25 -- Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, TKO 5
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)
July 21 -- Carl Williams, Atlantic City, N.J., TKO 1
(Retained Undisputed World Heavyweight Title)


1990
Feb. 11 -- James Douglas, Tokyo, Japan, KO by 10
(Lost World Heavyweight Title)
June 16 -- Henry Tillman, Las Vegas, KO 1
Dec. 8 -- Alex Stewart, Atlantic City, N.J., KO 1


1991
Mar. 18 -- Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, TKO 7
June 28 -- Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, W 12


1995
Aug. 19 -- Peter McNeeley, Las Vegas, W DSQ 1
Dec. 16 -- Buster Mathis, Jr., Philadelphia, KO 3


1996
Mar. 16 -- Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, TKO 3
(Won WBC Heavyweight Title)
Sept. 7 -- Bruce Seldon, Las Vegas, TKO 1
(Won WBA Heavyweight Title)
Nov. 9 -- Evander Holyfield, Las Vegas, TKO by 11
(Lost WBA Heavyweight Title)


1997
June 28 -- Evander Holyfield, Las Vegas, L DQ 3
(For WBA Heavyweight Title)


1999
Jan. 16 -- Francois Botha, Las Vegas, KO 5
Oct. 23 -- Orlin Norris, Las Vegas, NC 1


2000
Jan. 29 -- Julius Francis, Manchester, England, TKO 2
June 24 -- Lou Savarese, Glasgow, Scotland, TKO 1
Oct. 20 -- Andrew Golota, Detroit, NC 3


2001
Oct. 13 -- Brian Nielsen, Copenhagen, Denmark, TKO 7


2002
June 8 -- Lennox Lewis, Memphis, Tennessee, KO by 8
(For WBC and IBF heavyweight title)


2003
Feb. 22 -- Clifford Etienne, Memphis, Tennessee, KO 1


2004
July 30 -- Danny Williams, Louisville, KY, KO by 4


2005
June 11 -- Kevin McBride, Washington, DC, TKO by 6
Referee Joe Cortez stops the fight when Tyson doesn't come out for Round 7. Tyson announces his retirement after the fight.


2006
Oct. 20 -- Corey Sanders, Youngstown, OH, EXH. 4

Thats a record of 50 Wins, 6 Losses, 2 No Contest, 44 Knockouts
When the fight has gone beyond 3 rounds he is 13 - 5, so - so.
Also, after going through these fighters Tyson has faced, I challenge anyone to pick out an actual boxer. 90% of his fights have been against class A bums.

The Bruno dominations you show are impressive until you look at who its against - Bruno, an above average fighter at best. Razor Ruddock I consider decent as well. He also beat an over the hill Holmes, again, not that impressive.

As to ther Buster Douglas loss, whos problem is it that Tyson decided not to train? Not training is not an excuse imo. He should of trained, he didnt...too bad.

Also, regarding the Hollyfield fights, you say he was out of his prime, well what was Hollyfield? A youngster, lol. He was older, and even further removed from his prime, yet thrashed Tyson pretty easily.

As for Lennox Lewis, he is easily a top 10 heavyweight of all time if Tyson is. Dont forget Tysons people dodged the Lewis fight for years, why? I'll tell you, Lenox Lewis size, weight and tecnichal skill would have been a nightmare for Tyson(and most boxers actually).He does not match up vs the giant that is LL. If Lewis wanted, he could sit back, pick off Tyson with jabs for the entire fight if he wanted, and take it on the cards. His reach and speed have made him one of the best boxers of the modern era. He just didnt do it flashy like Tyson. Hes an actual boxer, who would outbox most of his opponents.

Remember when Riddick Bowe threw his one belt in the garbage can? Well that was to avoid fighting Lewis.

Also - Lewis defeated every professional opponent he faced, one of only three World Heavyweight Champions to do so, with Ingemar Johansson and Rocky Marciano being the other two. Gene Tunney and Riddick Bowe avenged their professional defeats, but had "no contest" fights against fighters they never defeated.

Lennox lewis has a better record than Tyson at 41-2-1 with 32 KOs, and he fought much tougher boxers. In fact, he beat the besty heavyweights of the time except a couple.

Against common opponents -

LL TKOd Ruddock in the 2nd round - Tyson beat him in 7 rounds
LL beat Holyfield twice(badly), although for some reason the judges called 1 of their fights a draw, one of the biggest fixes ever.
Tyson lost twice Evander.
They both beat Bruno with ease.

Both lewis' defeats and draw were avenged in the rematches, unlike Tyson.
Some of Lewis victories include - Tyson, Holyfield, Morrison, Briggs, Klitchko, Golota, Mccaul, mercer, Tua, Botha, Bruno(7)
Much stiffer competition.

BANG!!! -- He made great fighters look like amateurs, and good fighters look like they shouldn't be in a ring.

You gotta be joking SoM lol!
Great fighters!?? Who?? Spinks, lol?
Go through the list, they are all bums.
I agree that he made bums look like they shouldnt be in the ring, but against decent to good fighters, he never impressed me.
People love the raw power, and the big KOs add to the hype, but as an actual pugilist, Lewis was far superior to mike.
Didnt Iron mike lose to Buster Mathis Jr? lol

I think he had the potential to be a top heavyweight of all time, and he did impress when he was young. But at the end of the day, the people around him, the death of his father figure (gus domato??), his complete lack of any sense or brains, and that c$%nt of a wife Givens all contributed to one of the worst dissapointments in boxing history.

Personally, I dont think his name belongs in the same sentence as an Ali or a Marciano.


As for the best pound for pound boxers in the world, other than Ali and Roy Jones, I think the middleweights are better suited for such a title.

[Risto the Great]

Jeez Spartan, quite an in depth analysis!
You make some solid points ... but to be honest, nobody has ever looked more terrifying to me as much as Tyson when in full steam. Hence the honour bestowed upon him. Mind you, in the same vein as guitarists who think they can play better than other famous guitarists .... "I coulda taken him". lol

[Spartan]

^^
It is possible for a peasant Athenian to resemble a Spartan when pitted against a weakling.....


I agree that Tyson in his early years was very terrifying, with the potential to be the best ever. Its just that as the competition got stiffer over time, he didnt rise to the occasion so to speak.