Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by cultea

Odysseus Androutsos was not an Arvanite, neither Theodoros Kolokotronis or Georgios Karaiskakis.

Its very pointless to keep a dialogue with you when most of time you're deliberately trying to downplay the significance of revolutionary heroes by hiding their true ethnicity. Odysseus Androutsos was of course an Albanian who served in Ali Pasha's army. Both Finlay and Gordon share the belief that it was from Ali at Yannina that Odysseus Androutsos had learned to combine the worst vices of Albanians and Greeks. If you are not fully convinced by our impartial sources, then take the following excerpt written by a Greek like you

Odysseus Androutsos (1790–1825): Greco-Albanian fighter in the Greek Revolution, from Ithaca, like his Homeric namesake. Engonopoulos calls him “one of the foremost figures in world history.

Surrealism in Greece: an anthology,p. 48, Nikos Stabakis - 2008

I guess Stabakis's speculation that he was Greco-Albanian derives from his ignorance that Preveza was Greek at that time! But, both of his parents were Albanian.

[cultea]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

As for Karaskaikis Finlay believed he was a gypsy.

He did? Maybe he had an exclusive about Karaiskakis’ illegitimate father.

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

And the evidence for Kolokotroni being an Albanian are all in this topic. I would ask people to review from page one and onward again.

The “evidence” of him being tall was even more amazing.

Originally Posted by Epirot

Its very pointless to keep a dialogue with you when most of time you're deliberately trying to downplay the significance of revolutionary heroes by hiding their true ethnicity. Odysseus Androutsos was of course an Albanian who served in Ali Pasha's army. Both Finlay and Gordon share the belief that it was from Ali at Yannina that Odysseus Androutsos had learned to combine the worst vices of Albanians and Greeks.

He was “of course” an Albanian? How come? Do you now mean he became Albanian by association?
By the way, can you submit your Finlays and Gordons? You too, TrueMacedonian.

Originally Posted by Epirot

If you are not fully convinced by our impartial sources, then take the following excerpt written by a Greek like you. I guess Stabakis's speculation that he was Greco-Albanian derives from his ignorance that Preveza was Greek at that time! But, both of his parents were Albanian.

Both Nikos Stabakis and the specific book are totally irrelevant to the topic (he’s a film historian speaking about… surrealism in Greek poetry and painting) so his "speculation" comes probably from misinformation. I hope your phrase about Preveza is ironic. Whose parents were Albanians?

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by cultea

Both Nikos Stabakis and the specific book are totally irrelevant to the topic (he’s a film historian speaking about… surrealism in Greek poetry and painting) so his "speculation" comes probably from misinformation. I hope your phrase about Preveza is ironic. Whose parents were Albanians?

Now you're jumping from one thing to other. Preveza was Albanian, either ethnically and geographically. I don't even know why do you find this as ironic? But it's ok...in your historical books you got the impression that Preveza was Greek. Let me know you with some facts ignored by your official history:

The etymology of 'Preveza' is thought to derive from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation (this was suggested by Petros Fourikis and Konstantinos Amantos). See more: Petros Fourikis: "Nikopolis Preveza" first edition, Athens 1930.

Even your beloved Hammond is compelled to admit that etymology:

The name is probably from the Albanian word preve'ze, meaning 'the crossing place', and the place may have been founded by Albanians who moved down the coast and entered Acarnania.

Epirus: the geography, the ancient remains, the history and topography of Epirus and adjacent areas, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, Clarendon P., 1967, p. 46

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Epirot

The etymology of 'Preveza' is thought to derive from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation.........probably from the Albanian word preve'ze, meaning 'the crossing place'.........

Both the placename and the actual word itself may come from 'prevoza', which can mean 'transport' in all Slavic languages.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Both the placename and the actual word itself may come from 'prevoza', which can mean 'transport' in all Slavic languages.

Actually this has been once proposed. Here what I got on Wiki article about Preveza:

It might come from the old Slavic word perevoz meaning "crossing, passage" (Diogenes Charitonos and Fyodor Uspeski) or

from the old Albanian word prevëzë-za, that means transportation (Petros Fourikis and Konstantinos Amantos),

or from the Latin word prevesione, that means sustenance (victuals) (Max Vasmer, Peter Schustall, Johannes Conter)

My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus (I am not saying that Slavs never entered in Epirus). The southern portion of Epirus (its bay) was always a key strategic point and many rulers were eager to put under control it. The Albanian barons waged continuous wars against Venetian and Franc rulers. But in the end, southern Epirus was part of southern Albanian principalities up to the Ottoman period. So Albanians were well-established in southern Epirus, so that is why it seem more plausible that Preveza may have been initially an Albanian name (in the old Albanian "prevëzë" means exactly 'crossing place' in the sense the port of Preveza served as a trampoline point to pass in Acarnania). With the collapse of Dushan's empire, Slavic aristocracies were weak and could not hold their positions in Epirus.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Epirot

My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus.....

Not sure about today, but the opposite is true when the placename was first recorded. And even if it was named by Albanians, the word itself looks like a loan from Slavic languages.

[TrueMacedonian]

Originally Posted by Epirot

Actually this has been once proposed. Here what I got on Wiki article about Preveza:



My hesitation to admit the first possibility is because Slavic traces are barely to be found in Epirus (I am not saying that Slavs never entered in Epirus). The southern portion of Epirus (its bay) was always a key strategic point and many rulers were eager to put under control it. The Albanian barons waged continuous wars against Venetian and Franc rulers. But in the end, southern Epirus was part of southern Albanian principalities up to the Ottoman period. So Albanians were well-established in southern Epirus, so that is why it seem more plausible that Preveza may have been initially an Albanian name (in the old Albanian "prevëzë" means exactly 'crossing place' in the sense the port of Preveza served as a trampoline point to pass in Acarnania). With the collapse of Dushan's empire, Slavic aristocracies were weak and could not hold their positions in Epirus.

According to Nicholas Hammond alot of Epirus was "Slavic". Epirus also had a very large Vlach population.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

According to Nicholas Hammond alot of Epirus was "Slavic". Epirus also had a very large Vlach population.

TM, to which book of Hammond are you referring to? I have Hammond's "Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas" and I've read just partially it because of my scanty time. B. Osswald, a tireless researcher has done a good work on medieval Epirus and he stated that Slavs did not create any compact settlement in Epirus because there is a lack of sources for their presence. He admits that Slavs might have been settled in Epirus, but in the eve of 13 century, if not before, they've been completely assimilated. Whereas, the Vlachs presence is more attested and due to their nomadic affinity, Vlachs who were always keen for new pastures, spread in a great extent in certain portion of Epirus. In the XIX century, their presence was mainly concentrated around Janina and across Pindus mountains. They were the first who became heavily Hellenized in Epirus. The noteworthy French cartographer, G. Lejean in his map on 1861 colored Epirus as Albanian, while just a portion of it as Vlach:

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Epirot

He admits that Slavs might have been settled in Epirus, but in the eve of 13 century, if not before, they've been completely assimilated.

Assimilated by whom? And who did the 'Slavs' integrate with upon reaching Epirus?

.........Slavs did not create any compact settlement in Epirus because there is a lack of sources for their presence.

What kind of sources? Placenames? How many recorded Albanian placenames in the Balkans during the 13th century and prior? Can you name any?

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Assimilated by whom? And who did the 'Slavs' integrate with upon reaching Epirus?

Douglas Dakin in his book 'The Greek struggle for independence' stated that Slavic invasions in Greece were primarily military inroads, which according to him, means that there was no Slavic migration of a great scale. That's why Slavs could not retain their identity and were assimilated in Greeks, adopting the language of Church, etc. The Albanian migration in Greece was quite different: Albanians arrived with their families, found compact villages and preserved to a remarkable degree their ancestral language. The core of Fallmerayer thesis was that Greece has been captured by Slavs who in turn were assimilated by Albanians. We can guess the same to happen in Epirus. Here Albanians as descendants of old Epirotes were well-established. The ephemeral Slavic military elites were easily absorbed by Albanians, and during all the time, Slavs were of minor importance in Epirus. All ethnographic accounts and maps of 18th and 19th century point out that Albanians prevailed numerically among all others.

What kind of sources? Placenames? How many recorded Albanian placenames in the Balkans during the 13th century and prior? Can you name any?

You may find a lot of answers in the article of Osswald:

http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf