Kolokotronis the Albanian

[cultea]

Originally Posted by Epirot

We can guess the same to happen in Epirus. Here Albanians as descendants of old Epirotes were well-established. The ephemeral Slavic military elites were easily absorbed by Albanians, and during all the time, Slavs were of minor importance in Epirus. All ethnographic accounts and maps of 18th and 19th century point out that Albanians prevailed numerically among all others.

In Epirus? In Greece? Which "all" accounts and maps?
Actually the link you just posted says different (speaks of Greek majority in Epirus, see Conclusions section at the end).
A previous source you gave spoke of 15% Arvanites (within 1830s Greece), but you forgot to mention this detail. Then you said Arvanites were 1/3 in Thessaly but posted a map (post#38) where there are none.
By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by cultea

In Epirus? In Greece?

Please, see my previous post. I was referring to Epirus. You Greeks are professionals in the art of derailing threads.

Originally posted by cultea

Which "all" accounts

You're challenging my conclusion. Well, let us face with the light of these documents:

It was probably about this time that the Albanian name was extended to all those mountaineers of Illyricum and Epirus, who were united by community of language and manners ; and, as it should seem, they constituted a separate and independent community, which formed alliances at will with the Greek emperors, the Franks, or the despots of Epirus.

The Penny cyclopædia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful ..., Volume, George Long, Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge (Great Britain

As regards Epirus, there was another reason, perhaps, that nearly the whole of its population is now Albanian;

The Eclectic magazine: foreign literature, Volume 58
By John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell

The life of Ali Pacha, of Jannina: late vizier of Epirus, surnamed Aslan...by Alph. de Beauchamp, page 21, 1823




The scanned images I got from "rex362" at "illyria.proboards.com"

Originally posted by cultea

maps?

How many do you want, buddy?






























O sir Bellin why do you put the name of Albania next to the Gulf of Arta?! Are you intentionally ignoring the North Epirus which is mainly populated by Albanians...oh sorry for my expression, by Albanized Hellenes? Therefore you have to correct your map by putting the boundary between Greece & Albania at least at Shkumbin river!

Originally posted by cultea

By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

Yes but you seem to ignore a small detail in my post. I was referring to Douglas Dakin's book. I do not much things about Thessaloniki and its environs but as far as Epirus is concerned, I am entirely certain that Slavs passed in Epirus just like military riders and could only establish themselves as barons in the time of Dushan's empire. Their rule lasted not long.

[Epirot]

O Albanians what are you doing in Janina, the capital of Albania? I even thought that Janina was one of the purest Greek city in Balkans

cultea are you that stupid as to try with an old riffle to handle a total attack from a B-52 bomber?



and I am not sure if your maggotsontheweb can give any substantial aid. Or, maybe I am wrong. Last time I heard they are preparing their air-force against us:


Kapetan Donkey & Andreas Kyropoulos

[Onur]

By the way, Slavs haven't been solely raiders. In (at least) one of the six surges of Thessaloniki by Avars/Slavs/Avaro-Slavs it is mentioned that their women and children had camped and waited outside the walls of the city during the battles.

Thats true. The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.

All the nomadic equestrian people in the middle ages, including all the Hunnic and Germanic tribes was traveling along with their families, even when they raid somewhere. Their families behind them, was dealing with sheep flocks, providing food for the men at the war field. They had no giant buildings except few castles for the khans/kings. Their women also had much more privileged role in their society unlike Romans. Some women was joining raids too.

I ask these questions to anyone who claims that they were just a small military regiment. These questions are also valid for Bulgars who came to Balkans;

• If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies? Roman armies was consisted around 20.000-50.000 manpower at that time. If nomads had beaten them, their army should be around this number. Add their families, this makes about ~50.000+ people for single raid.

• What was the population of local people, the places where they have raided??? In that times, only the major capital cities population was above 200.000-300.000, like Rome or Istanbul. Maybe few more important centers like Salonika had like 100.000 population at most. Mountainous regions in Balkans was desolated in today`s terms. Already, most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers like Belgrade, Sofia, Salonika, Skopje, while whole of today`s Albania founded during the Turkish reign, including the capital city of Tirana.

For example, when Ottoman empire conquered Istanbul, there was only ~40.000 people in whole city and it`s estimated like ~10.000 already left the city shortly b4 the war. So, this makes that Istanbul`s population in 1450 around ~50.000 people.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Onur

The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.
.

A massive Slavic migration on Epirus can't sustain because their presence is so slight as disappeared with the collapse of Dushan's empire.

If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies?

You're right at least theoretically, but however there are some cases with provide the contrary. For instance, Goths were just military raiders when they firstly entered within Roman Empire's territory. At the beginning they were established into region of Scythia, which is why they were often confounded with the Scythians. Then they harrased Balkans only as raiders. Later on, when they were allowed to settle in North Western Balkans by the permission of Roman Emperor, they sporadically made incursions depth in Moesia and Thrace again as military raiders. The largest part of Goths (non-soldiers) did not followed the army, at least some of the written sources I had read, suggest so. I assume that this paradigm can also explain the case of Epirus during the Slavic migration. Slavs might have been established in adjacent regions, like southern Macedonia and from there made short incursions toward Epirus. We can't simply ignore the very fact that Epirus and its mountainous nature hardly attracted Slavs who were more interested in lowlands rather than highlands.

[Onur]

I was talking about in general, not specifically about the slavic raids to Epirus but i have to agree with you about the mountainous regions. For the equestrian nomads, mountainous areas was only useful for feeding the flocks, funerals and praying to the sky god(s) but not for living unless they were under threat.

Btw, i don't think that they ever raided somewhere without backup from their families. While women was only considered as worthless slaves in Roman society, the women in nomadic society was powerful, equally privileged as men and they were providing spiritual help to their people, as well as food and health service with their knowledge of herbalism.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Onur

The story of slavic raiders being a small military regiment is just an assumption and/or a propaganda.

Is that right? Why don't you and Cultea show us all of the references to women and children that apparently accompanied the 'raiders', and prove the assumption wrong?

Btw, i don't think that they ever raided somewhere without backup from their families.

They didn't need the back up of women and children to defeat Roman armies and establish their rule in the Balkans.

If they were small minority then how come they constantly defeated Roman armies? Roman armies was consisted around 20.000-50.000 manpower at that time. If nomads had beaten them, their army should be around this number.

Do you think the Romans had 50,000 soldiers just waiting on the banks of the Danube? They were constantly fighting wars in Western Europe, Northern Africa and Asia. Together with the plague of the 540's, their position was weakened and they weren't able to defend their imperial boundaries as well as they did in previous years. Furthermore, history has shown that numerically inferior armies can defeat larger armies in some circumstances. Use some logic.

What was the population of local people, the places where they have raided??? In that times, only the major capital cities population was above 200.000-300.000, like Rome or Istanbul. Maybe few more important centers like Salonika had like 100.000 population at most.

The way you dismiss the entire countryside is comical, especially given that if there wasn't a significant population in those areas there would be few people working the fields, farms, etc and generating the produce to feed those in the cities.

Mountainous regions in Balkans was desolated in today`s terms.

How do you know this? What are you comparing it to in today's terms?

Already, most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers like Belgrade, Sofia, Salonika, Skopje, while whole of today`s Albania founded during the Turkish reign, including the capital city of Tirana.

Founded? In Macedonia alone the most significant cities (aside from Solun and Skopje which you've already mentioned) such as Lerin, Voden, Kostur, Stip, Bitola, Ohrid and Prilep all predate Ottoman rule. Which cities are you talking about?

While women was only considered as worthless slaves in Roman society, the women in nomadic society was powerful, equally privileged as men and they were providing spiritual help to their people, as well as food and health service with their knowledge of herbalism.

While there may be some truth to this in some cases, you're making a generalisation that can't be taken seriously.

Originally Posted by Epirot

A massive Slavic migration on Epirus can't sustain because their presence is so slight as disappeared with the collapse of Dushan's empire.

It was an invasion. A massive Slavic 'migration' never took place. After the 6th century, the region was a part of the autonomous enclaves that were governed by Slavic-speaking warriors, and later ruled by empires from Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia. You're delusional if you think that the Slavic-speaking presence in Epirus was 'slight'.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Why don't you and Cultea show us all of the references to women and children that apparently accompanied the 'raiders', and prove the assumption wrong? They didn't need the back up of women and children to defeat Roman armies and establish their rule in the Balkans.

If you would know the life and habits of equestrian nomads of middle ages, then you wouldn't ask these question to me. I suggest you to watch the documentaries i`ve posted in this forum b4, read some articles about the archeological findings, burials, mummies and read books about the naturalist, shamanistic, pagan people, their spiritual beliefs and the role of women in their society. It doesn't matter which society, the books about Goths, Saxons, Celts, Vikings, Huns, early Slavs are OK cuz they have pretty similar lifestyle.

Founded? In Macedonia alone the most significant cities (aside from Solun and Skopje which you've already mentioned) such as Lerin, Voden, Kostur, Stip, Bitola, Ohrid and Prilep all predate Ottoman rule. Which cities are you talking about?

If you are talking about the ancient ruins in these cities then i gotta remind you that these cities has been desolated due to wars, plague and other diseases. The ancient ruins has been buried underground and the cities was no more there for centuries. Most of these cities has been revived and founded again after 15th century and most of them has been populated in 16th century due to massive population increase at that time. After 16th century, the population of Balkans has been doubled quickly and overall lifetime increased due to easy accessibility and diversity of food and also due to pax-Ottomana of that era. This leaded to an enlargement of inhabitable territories and the creation of new villages, cities.

The proof for that is the appearance of Anatolian Turkish food varieties in Balkan cuisine after 15th century. Also go back to your own post;
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=270

Check the PDF there, the Turkish originated words for various vegetables and fruits exists not only in Albanian but in all Balkan languages. It`s because these vegetables, fruits and the all the meals prepared with these, has been brought by the Turks from Anatolia and introduced to the Balkan cuisine after 15th century.

[julie]

most of the today`s Balkan cities has been founded during Ottoman reign, after 15th century, with the exception of few centers l

ancient ruins has been buried underground and the cities was no more there for centuries. Most of these cities has been revived and founded again after 15th century

Onur
These 2 generalisations I am hoping you are not speaking of Macedonia??
you are jesting!
Many towns have been populated going back to ancient times!
The 15th century Ottoman revival you speak of are whitewashing and destroying many of the churches murals, St Sophia Ohrid is a good example , painting over the religious murals centuries old, and placing ugly minarets which have been removed! By desecrating the churches as an example, you are stating that Ottomans founded the cities and towns? Churches built not by a minority of people but that date back over a thousand years? eg sveti mala Kliment ohridski 9th century church?

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by julie

, St Sophia Ohrid is a good example , painting over the religious murals centuries old, and placing ugly minarets which have been removed!

julie, if the beauty of civilization is to be found in Orthodox churches or Muslim minarets, then I am almost sure that human civilization has produced nothing in terms of value.

Do not take this reply as an assault toward the religions, but Balkans culture is a treasure in itself and other influences had just downplay that glory.

I do not know what was the treatment of orthodox temples in Macedonia by the Ottomans, but I assure you that in Kosova Orthodox churches were never destroyed, pillaged or looted because Ottoman authorities with the cooperation of Albanians guarded them and kept them safe!