United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Bratot

Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.

Bratot,

What kind of discussions are you refering to? I havn't seen any "secrets" revealed in this post. Noone has asked for personal details, details of planned events or activities, details on the internal structures of the organisation or any other details that could compromise UMD activities.

The debate has centred around UMD policies and its stand on critical issues of national importance. These are fundamental questions for any individual or organisation that engages in PUBLIC activity.

Your comment (whether intentional or unintetional) serves to stiffle critical debate over an organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE, but has been unable to answer questions relating to the fundamental issues that it supposedly represents us on.

One suggestion I would provide to UMD is, rather than spending so much time and energy on marketing the organisation, it would be wiser to sit down and work out what the organisation actually stands for. That way they would not run into so many 'heated' debates over their policies and principles.

[Bratot]

Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Bratot

Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".

Bratot,

I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.

I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".

Ok, for the sake of objectivity, let me throw one from the other end. Vangelovski, is not what you wrote above stipulated in the UMD mission statement that Risto posted on the first page of this thread? What exactly do you require elaboration on? Specific details?

You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish, and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.

I wish to ask you two things in particular:

(1) Can you show me an organisation that exists as you envision it, and if so, are you a member?

(2) If not, why are you not taking the necessary steps to initiate and develop an organisation as you envision it?

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by Pelister

No response, Jankovska.

And I know of a couple people who left UMd because of ideological differences with its leadership - and the people who left were asking for nothing more than the defence and preservation of the Macedonian identity. UMd have said that they are not into the business of defending Macedonian rights ...etc, they are a different kind of political organization.

Honestly I am not very happy to hear you didn't receive any response. I would expect as a member of any organisation or organisation that represents my people to have time or people in place to reply to all questions and worries that people may have. It's not just about the members also about the people who are interested in the work of that organisation and may become members. I disagree that we should ask the UMD questions on a open forum, I think it's not quite right and they have every right to refuse and answer. Being a professional organisation they have contact details and everyone should contact them that way. I am very dissapointed that you didn't receive an answer Pelister, I hope we can blame it on lost in administration and hope that this is not what happenes all the time.
I do appreciate the UMD and the hard work that they put in and no one is saying they know the best, maybe they should have a suggestion board or something where other people can feel more invloved in the work and part of it.

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Bratot,

I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.

I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".

If you are not interested, you shouldn't even bother to reply on this topic.

My interest is not gonna be compromised for the sake of what you call a "debate", and creating situation where everyone can say anything and not take the responsibility for it.

If anyone provide strong arguments to blame UMD or particular members, than it can be done.
But not in a "charshiski muabet" stile, just to put a doubt on someone.

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.

Risto, I couldn't see a urge to be exposed by Vangelovski like that for something I suggested discretly in favour of keeping the discussion among us, not to bring in any lack of unity in front everyone who is watching us.

Or you have seen the Greeks to "discuss" like that on their forums!?

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish, and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.

I have the same impression.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Perhaps you should read the part of my post that you highlighted again, and then read the next sentence.

I take FULL responsibility for what I say because I am using my REAL identity here, unlike you with your FAKE internet ID.

I also don't rely on "Charsiski Muabeti". In case you are unaware, I was one of the original co-founders of UMD and head of UMD Australia until I left about 8 months ago on the grounds of irreconcilable ideological differences, particularly with the American board membership.

SoM,

No organisation in the world can claim to represent ALL Macedonians for the simple fact that not ALL Macedonians are members of UMD, many don't even know that it exists or agree with many of their activities and public statements.

In relation to your first question, the ONLY organisation that I know of that does not openly elaborate what it stands for is UMD. UMD is the only organisation, that I know of, whose board members only provide their "personal" views, but the organisation as a whole is unable to provide its "official" view.

In relation to your second question, I am a member of a number of organisations in my local community and I maintain that membership because I agree with their policies. What organisation do you know of, that cannot answer simple, but fundamental questions about what they stand for?

Its like asking Green Peace what they stand for and them responding to you that they cannot tell you in a public forum, they can only answer you in private??? I thought the main role of UMD was to 'educate' policy makers (i.e., Governments) - well, what exactly are they 'educating' policy makers about? What is UMD's stance on fundamental issues of national importance?

I'm not asking UMD to reveal their next activity, when it will be undertaken and how. However, UMD needs to be open about what it is it stands for.

There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.

[Bratot]

So in fact the members of UMD are contradicting eachother.

And sorry Vangelovski, I'm not checking you up. It's not my biz to be aware who use what kind of nick on the forum.

If you insist I will put a last name in my forum nickname, which doesn't have to mean its mine.


Just from curiosity, what are the achievments so far.. of UMD?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

My statement was that UMD (the organisation) has made contradictory public statements through press releases, interviews etc.

You can use whatever nickname you want, but its a bit rich for you to say that I don't take responsibility for what post here when in fact I am using my REAL name.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to be asking what UMD has achieved?