Macedonian Orthodox Church - News & Updates

[Rogi]

This post obviously arised because of the other thread about the Church and something to do with Western Australia, etc and your subsequent comments on that thread.

Reading through all this though and how wide ranging it all is, and taking into consideration the time and enthusiasm required to keep a dossier of these articles, I must ask, are you only against the Bishop Petar, which you've already made clear, or against the Macedonian Orthodox Church, or against religion?

It's a little hard to judge with these wide-ranging articles that seem to try and discredit the entire Macedonian Orthodox Church.

Today, I happened to be re-reading Niccolò Machiavelli's book "Discourses on Livy" (quite the opposite to 'The Prince'). His views on the importance of religion in a state are very interesting.

[Soldier of Macedon]

They (other OC's) treat us the way Europe does concerning Macedonia's entry into the EU, all full of fake promises, a date to decide on a date for a date, ebago, do koga vaka with these tikvi? But I guess, this is the type of world we live in, so we will continue to endure this sort of racism, ignorance and indifference by foreigners and supposed 'brothers' until something changes, and I am not waiting for Russia or some other 'friend' to come to our rescue. Above all else, let's strive and succeed to keep our integrity, that is the most important thing, we have our history, nobody can touch that, they can only criminally snatch and grab pieces like they do, but they will never have our Macedonian history.

We don't need their 'acceptance', let them come to us and ask for our acceptance and forgiveness, us, the descendants, of the people who created the letters they use today, of the land where the great Archbishopric and Literary Schools of Ohrid gave them literature in the tongue which they could all understand and receive their Christian faith from.

We owe none of them anything.

[Bill77]

They (other OC's) treat us the way Europe does concerning Macedonia's entry into the EU, all full of fake promises, a date to decide on a date for a date, ebago, do koga vaka with these tikvi? But I guess, this is the type of world we live in, so we will continue to endure this sort of racism, ignorance and indifference by foreigners and supposed 'brothers' until something changes, and I am not waiting for Russia or some other 'friend' to come to our rescue. Above all else, let's strive and succeed to keep our integrity, that is the most important thing, we have our history, nobody can touch that, they can only criminally snatch and grab pieces like they do, but they will never have our Macedonian history.

We don't need their 'acceptance', let them come to us and ask for our acceptance and forgiveness, us, the descendants, of the people who created the letters they use today, of the land where the great Archbishopric and Literary Schools of Ohrid gave them literature in the tongue which they could all understand and receive their Christian faith from.

We owe none of them anything.

Again, Too Right SOM. Who needs clubs. So the OC club does not want us, Its God us Macedonians should wary or care about, Not religion. These political fake idiots that claim they are men of God, let them answer to God During there judgement day, when he asks them Why they turned people away from his house.

History can never be rubed out. Also existance. Shit we were under the Turks for centuries, and someone before them, and devided and abused and depressed for another 100 years since the Early 1900's. Yet we have not disapeared. We are still here and always be as long as we keep our integrity and stand united.

[Pelister]

No other Orthodox church in the world recognizes the MOC, because of the SOC's idiocy, which consequently makes the ROC an even larger idiotic body for condoning this sort of behaviour with its silence...the third Rome...whatever...they don't even acknowledge or respect the people who produced an alphabet so their people could read and receive Christianity in an understood tongue.

None of these vultures wants to recognize Macedonia's complete history, they all want to take bits and pieces that suit their agendas.

Exactly. Our apostles deserve some consideration in this issue.

[Big Bad Sven]

They (other OC's) treat us the way Europe does concerning Macedonia's entry into the EU, all full of fake promises, a date to decide on a date for a date, ebago, do koga vaka with these tikvi? But I guess, this is the type of world we live in, so we will continue to endure this sort of racism, ignorance and indifference by foreigners and supposed 'brothers' until something changes, and I am not waiting for Russia or some other 'friend' to come to our rescue. Above all else, let's strive and succeed to keep our integrity, that is the most important thing, we have our history, nobody can touch that, they can only criminally snatch and grab pieces like they do, but they will never have our Macedonian history.

We don't need their 'acceptance', let them come to us and ask for our acceptance and forgiveness, us, the descendants, of the people who created the letters they use today, of the land where the great Archbishopric and Literary Schools of Ohrid gave them literature in the tongue which they could all understand and receive their Christian faith from.

We owe none of them anything.

It’s a real shame though that the rest of the Orthodox world tows the Serbian, “Greek” and Bulgarian line though – which is the majority of the Orthodox Churches and Shrines in Macedonia are Serbian because of the great and wonderful empire of Tsar Dusan, and that in ottoman times Macedonians went to Bulgarian churches and schools, and most importantly Macedonia = “GREEK”, hence the MOC cant be called Macedonian because its “greek”

Some great friends we have in the little Orthodox family

[Soldier of Macedon]

History proves that whenever there has been a local movement in Macedonia, even if it did previously fall within the borders of neighbouring empires, the Archbishopric of Ohrid always supported the local Macedonians, from Samuel, to Marko, to Theodosius, and others.

The Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia has always had an autonomous nature and often had 'uneasy' relations with both Rome and Constantinople - We didn't need them then, we don't need them now, certainly not these so-called 'brothers' of today.

[indigen]

The ARTICLES are to inform forum readers about "Nishka spogodba" of 2002, which is a REAL event that shook Macedonia and Macedonians around the world when it occurred.

[Rogi]

With only a surface level understanding, you hardly have the authority or credibility to comment on anything relating to the Macedonian community in Melbourne. Stick to your home town (I assume, by your posts, you are from Sydney).

Though, since you're pretending to know so much, perhaps you could share the countless stories of how one particular Church here in Melbourne was being run (read: run in to the ground, heading toward an imminent bankruptcy) as a closed entity for the select few.

That was before a new committee took over, re-organised and strengthened the Church financially and opened the whole Church and its surrounding properties making it available to the entire Macedonian community - and they managed to negotiate an agreement with the Bishop for a community fund to be established and ran independently (I believe on the basis of there being a Macedonian community council as an all-representative body), for the community.

They also made available one of the properties (and renovated it for this purpose) to serve as the office for the Macedonian Community Council*.

That church committee left many years ago with their heads held high and with a lot of respect from the community for all that had been accomplished.

All this, while maintaining respectful, peaceful and even friendly relations with all 'sides' of the 'Church dispute'.


* The community council unfortunately dwindled down and was abused into becoming heavily involved in the so-called 'church Dispute', ran by heavily involved individuals (as opposed to maintaining an all-representative status) and so it never eventuated for the renovated Church property to become a permanent office for a representative body of the Macedonian community - I'm not sure where things are now since this was many, many years ago and matters seem to have escalated in the 'church dispute'.



As for the "Nishka Spogodba", I share the same sentiment and views that you do on this particular point and I have made that quite clear on many occasions.



However, my original question still stands on whether your position is that against the Bishop Petar, the Macedonian Orthodox Church, or Organised Religion, or Religion per se.



Now, as a side note, I wish to express one point about your condescending generalisations and holier-than-though attitude toward any/all Macedonians who may be younger than yourself.

I have noticed a number of your posts espousing this condescending attitude and I can only urge you to put an end to it; you are neither the wisest, the eldest, the smartest, the bravest, the most courageous nor the most patriotic Macedonian, despite your implied insistence. This seems to be an unfortunately common trait among you old codgers (if you like generalisations, this is one you can chew on).

You can rate yourself highly, that's fine, but I'll be damned if I let anyone stomp on any younger Macedonian as being anything less than you, purely because you were born earlier. Yes, sure, that's a Gen-Y attitude, but for the record, some (most) of the greatest people in Macedonian history were young revolutionaries (in 1903....Dimce Mogilceto-24, Uzunov-25, Karev-26, Sugarev-27 , Delcev-31, Sandanski-31, Gruev-32, Jordan Piperkata -33, etc).

[Risto the Great]

but for the record, some (most) of the greatest people in Macedonian history have been young.

Without commenting on any other aspect of this thread. Let it be said most of those young people ended up dead! Don't do it Rogi!

[Rogi]

Dead yes, but remembered for eternity. One could argue that to be a fair trade.

[indigen]

>>With only a surface level understanding, you hardly have the authority or credibility to comment on anything relating to the Macedonian community in Melbourne. Stick to your home town (I assume, by your posts, you are from Sydney).<<

I did not claim to be an "authority" but some info was/is common knowledge. If I want more detailed info, I know where to get some. Also, your view is only one side of the coin. The FACT that there was Eparhija loyalists loyal to bishop Timotej (about 5 churches plus some shadow opposition "upravi" headed by Risto A.) and "RASKOLNICI" (about 18 church communities) that refused to pay dues and formed a parrallel "registered" Eparihija was common knowledge to most active or informed Macedonians in the period between 1991/2-1995. Jole K. arrives in 1995 and we have some role reversals and a regrouping of Loyalists and "RASKOLNICI" and the show continues but this time at great financial expense to the community and EXTREME (including use of brute violence) tactics of division, intimidation, disinformation, slander, forced occupations, law suits as the mainstay of this sad saga. I know all this because I lived this period as an adult and read newspapers, listened to Mak radio, attended meetings, discussed the issues with protagonists from both sides (though I guess I was a protagonists also) and I have heard so much BS about "kompaniiski" crkvi to last me 10 life-times.

>>Though, since you're pretending to know so much<<
Your youthful arrogance is showing.

>>That church committee left many years ago with their heads held high and with a lot of respect from the community for all that had been accomplished.<<
Regardless of all else, any committee that hands over title deeds of Macedonian community property to Jole and Co. may live to regret it, IMO. And I am not talking about this committee but in general only.

>>>As for the "Nishka Spogodba", I share the same sentiment and views that you do on this particular point and I have made that quite clear on many occasions.<<
That is good to hear but I doubt you share my views on the "Vladici" that tried to implement it.

>>However, my original question still stands on whether your position is that against the Bishop Petar, the Macedonian Orthodox Church, or Organised Religion, or Religion per se.<<
I don't like your smart ass questions! But I will forgive your youthful arrogance and answer you by saying that the majority of the bishops in the Synod can (and should) NOT be trusted to defend Macedonian national interests and that the Macedonian Church is the Macedonian Orthodox believers/vernici.

>>Now, as a side note, I wish to express one point about your condescending generalizations and holier-than-though attitude toward any/all Macedonians who may be younger than yourself.<<
That is the wrong perception you have of me and I could not be bothered about it.

A few wise older Macedonians.....Filip II Makedonski, Aristotol Makedonski, Kiril i Metodi Makedonski, Kliment (Ohridski) Makedonski, Justinian Makedosnki, Vasil II Makedosnki, Iljo Maleshevski, Gjorgi Pulevski, Krste Misirkov, Metodija Andonov Chento, etc.

[Rogi]

The 'old codger' comment was purely to get back at you for the 'youthful arrogance' comments.

Nonetheless, the point that I perhaps failed to eloquently express was that the age (old or young) is irrelevant, but rather the character of the individual is.

Yes, young men in the prime of their physical life will always be over-represented in the list of war casualties.

A flawed statement when one considers the wisdom of young Goce Delchev and reads the Krushevo Manifesto by young Nikola Karev.




Why do I think the constitution of Macedonia requires that a presidential candidate be at least 40 years old and why the U.S. Constitution requires senators to be at least 30 and why the President and Vice President be at least 35 years old?

Because they are flawed and prejudiced on the same basis upon the same notion which you seem to share that age in itself is a prerequisite of wisdom. Those constitutions are discriminatory.

George Bush, Branko Crvenkovski, etc, all fit that age requirement. Need I say more to express my point about the irrelevance of age as a factor in character and widsom?

[Risto the Great]

the age (old or young) is irrelevant, but rather the character of the individual is.

Definition of "character" - The combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another.

An interesting point. Do we feel that the distinguishing qualities or features of an individual improve or even change over time? Whilst I have little regrets, I would say I am without a doubt an improved version of myself as compared to 10 years ago.

[indigen]

Indigen, Is there a reason you are doing this?? Rogi asked you a simple question and you accuse him about his dad being a raskolnik, why would you do that?? This is a democracy and people can believe what they like if you dont agree with Bishop Petar thats fine however you cant stop others who like him or agree with his views.

Prolet, are you trying to convince me that YOU are an agent provocateur? I may already be convinced, please don't try so hard. :-)

A political organization or government may use agents provocateurs against political opponents. The provocateurs try to incite the opponent to counter-productive or ineffective acts to foster public disdain—or provide a pretext for aggression against the opponent (see Red-baiting).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

You are ALWAYS stirring the pot, as others have noticed!

Who is a troll?

[indigen]

A flawed statement when one considers the wisdom of young Goce Delchev and reads the Krushevo Manifesto by young Nikola Karev.

Ok, Rogi, my arguments are flawed and you win. We are off-topic in this thread as it is and not to mention that it is the Macedonian language section, too.

Cheers