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Old 07-25-2010, 08:25 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Uskana View Post
Ok let's assume Albania does not give Macedonia full rights, what does that have to do with the Albanians in Macedonia? We don't vote for their representatives and most of us have little to no say what occurs in their country. Again, it seems that many of you use these Macedonians to limit the rights of Albanians in Macedonia. "Well the Macedonians in ALbania don't have this, so the Albanians shouldn't have this either." Albanians are known to be fair to its minorities. Even Greeks have schools in Albania, however, the opposite is not true. .
You are right, the two circumstances are technically/legally independant of each other. However, the morally and socially correct thing to do would be to recognise the minority and give them full rights. It is called being fair.

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The Turkification of Albanians in Macedonia is unfortunate. Turkish rights were promoted in Yugoslavia over Albanian rights even though their numbers were not much smaller then ours.
Do you think possibly has to do with the fact that many Turks have worked for the well being of Yugoslavia/Macedonia? The Turks living in Macedonia are proud of the country of their birth and are proud to call themselves macedonian citizens. They respect the laws and the constitution of Macedonia. You will find that most Macedonians enjoy having Turks as fellow citizens.
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:14 PM   #222
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The Turks in Macedonia are fantastic, i remember last year they had an anti terrorist protest about the Kurds they killed alot of people in Turkey the first thing they did in the city square of Skopje was play the Macedonian National Anthem no Albanian would do that to show respect, after they hung Turkish flags on the Stone Bridge nobody cared and other people even supported them.

When there is mutual respect, when two ethnic communities respect eachother for who they are and they respect their cultures and religion there will only be real friendship like there is with us, but with the Albanians i've seen their rallies where the Skenderbeg statue is and we see them shooting with Kalashnikovs and even at the old Bazaar we keep hearing gun shots like its some sort of a preparation for war.

I know the third Turkish family in Skopje, with ancestral roots that go back to the 13th century. They even showed me their old house that they lived in for centuries in the old Bazaar or Stara Skopska Charshija, They speak perfect Macedonian probably better then me yet they've never forgotten their roots and speak their language and follow their traditions but at the same time respect the country that they live in.
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:05 PM   #223
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Dude, i cant dismiss the possibility of Serbian Yugo intention to include Albanians to the mass and dump them to Turkey along with Turkish people. Since Albanians are muslim too and because of that, probably the most common intermarriages happened between the Turkish and Albanian people for centuries. If we look at the western european fascist point of view, you Albanians were no different than Turks according to them.
I don't doubt intermarriages occurred but I don't thin they are as common as you think. Albanians keep a sense of "blood purity" which is sacred in Albanian culture and marrying with a Turk would be considered tabboo. Today there are some marriages between the Albanians and Turks/Torbesh, but most Albanians justify these marriages by claiming these groups have a considerable amount of Albanian blood in them. Other Albanians that marry with the group tend to be more religious. I don't necessarily believe in "blood purity" but I am just pointing out some things in the Albanian culture.

As for the Turk part, yes to Western European, at the time, Albanians were seen as "Turks." The majority of Western Europe, and even the Ottoman Empire, looked at people through their religion and not ethnicity. I believe the census during the Ottoman times were done by religion as well.

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What i oppose here is; Both you and your ultra nationalist Albanian sources claims that this has been done with some kind of secret agreement between the Turks and Yugo authorities to settle you among Kurds. It cant be true since none of Balkan immigrants settled in eastern Anatolia where the Kurds lives. Besides that, like i said before, Kurds wasn't more than %4-5 of our total population at that time because most of the Kurds was living in Iraq at 1950s. Mass migration of Kurds to Turkey started after 1990, when Saddam decided to kill them with chemical bombs in there. Only after 1990s, we have %11 of Kurds here.
Look mate, I'll agree to disagree. Yugoslavia used Turkey to dump its Albanians and other Muslim minorities. I don't know much about Turkey but I do know many Albanians did move to villages and farms.

If someone could provide census information on Yugoslavia I would be best appreciated but all I could find was info on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...c_of_Macedonia

Check out the Turkish population for 1948 to 1953. The population nearly doubles while the Albanian population decreases by 30,000! That's a big change in 5 years. How convenient that these "Turks" would then be shipped off to Turkey. So yes I do believe the majority of the ppl were Albanian labeled as Turks!

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You even accuse Turkey for brainwashing Albanians!!! Yet you declare the pro-Turkish fondness of your people and you say yourself that even the people in Albania speaks Turkish in their homes. You guys are just being an ungrateful jerks here cuz Turkish government accepted those people without any money or property but i am sure that the Albanians in Turkey never thinks like you. The authorities gave homes to each family for free. These people always have equal rights here and no one humiliates them like they do to you in Europe/USA. Some of them became very rich too. For example, Izmir`s previous governor was a Kosovo immigrant and he was one of the most respected person in Izmir`s political life. His name was Ahmet Piristina(surname means, from Pristina, kosovo). I have no idea if he is Albanian or Turk either because we don't care at all if he is a good citizen of Turkey, like we don't care if Ataturk was Macedonian or a Turk. I don't expect you to understand our mentality tough since it`s obvious that we are living in a different world.
There are many reasons why these ppl speak Turkish. Remnants of the Ottoman legacy (which did not provide Albanian schooling but provided Greek and Serbian schools!), the aristocrats spoke Turkish, the Turkification process in the 50's and so forth. It was not so much of a fondness, but something that happened over time.

As for the Albanians in Turkey, brainwashing was a bit of a strong word but they have almost fully assimilated. These Albanians are proud to be Turks for what the Turkish government provided them. In the long run though this proved to be disadvantageous to the Albanians that saw many of it's cities depopulated. Manastir was once the birth of the Albanian language and today it is predominately Macedonian.

Last edited by Uskana; 07-26-2010 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:55 PM   #224
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I don't doubt intermarriages occurred but I don't thin they are as common as you think. Albanians keep a sense of "blood purity" which is sacred in Albanian culture and marrying with a Turk would be considered tabboo. Today there are some marriages between the Albanians and Turks/Torbesh, but most Albanians justify these marriages by claiming these groups have a considerable amount of Albanian blood in them. Other Albanians that marry with the group tend to be more religious. I don't necessarily believe in "blood purity" but I am just pointing out some things in the Albanian culture.
Mate, i was talking about the intermarriages at pre-19th century period. I agree that it wasn't that common after 1850. Also, there was no such a thing called "blood purity" before 19th century in whole Balkans.






Quote:
Check out the Turkish population for 1948 to 1953. The population nearly doubles while the Albanian population decreases by 30,000! That's a big change in 5 years. How convenient that these "Turks" would then be shipped off to Turkey. So yes I do believe the majority of the ppl were Albanian labeled as Turks!
It`s so easy to guess the reason for it. Albania was part of the WW-2 but Turkey wasn't and Turkey was a safe-heaven again. I know that the both eastern and western borders of Turkey was full of people from every nations during the WW-2. Even some Greeks was trying to escape to Turkey. This continued after the war as well. Especially because of Stalin regime.




The annual population growth rate between 1950 to 1955 increases from %2.20 to %2.81. Thats not only because of immigrations from Macedonia. I know that lots of Tatar and Azeri Turks escaped from Russian communists at post-war era. Also the 30.000 population decrease in Albania can easily be explained by the effects of WW-2. Turkey was safe-heaven at those days. Lots of people came here over the Balkans and Caucasus. Albanians, Tatars, Azeris, Bosnians, Jews and all others. France and Poland consulates of Turkey even gave Turkish passports to 1000s of Jews in there, just to save them from genocide because according to our agreement with Germany, Nazis weren't arresting or killing any Turkish citizen during the WW-2.








Quote:
As for the Albanians in Turkey, brainwashing was a bit of a strong word but they have almost fully assimilated. These Albanians are proud to be Turks for what the Turkish government provided them. In the long run though this proved to be disadvantageous to the Albanians that saw many of it's cities depopulated. Manastir was once the birth of the Albanian language and today it is predominately Macedonian.
Yes, i am aware that the most people with Albanian heritage in Turkey consider themselves as Turks. For example, i have an Albanian immigrant friend here, his name is Ilir(ilir, illyrian) but he cant speak single word of Albanian language. But i also have Bosnian friends here. Even if his family migrated here about 80 years ago and even if he is Turkish at mother`s side, he can speak Bosnian and he expresses his Bosnian heritage from time to time. Also same for Macedonians. Even the 3rd generation of Macedonian immigrants here can still speak Macedonian.

So, i have no idea why your fellow Albanians are like that in Turkey but we certainly never brainwash people here nor we settled any of them in eastern Anatolia among Kurds. In my opinion, it`s because of pro-Turkish fondness of your people and intermarriages with us at Ottoman era.



Ehh, you are being soooo nostalgic here about Manastir. Mate you talking about 1000+ years of time here(Dont speak like Greeks again, for the 3rd time now)

Caucasus was once the birthplace of Turkish language...
Mehter bands with Albanian soldiers was once banging drums at the gates of Vienna...
Half of the world including Manastir was belong to the Turks once... hehe

This is history anymore

Last edited by Onur; 07-26-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:22 PM   #225
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I'm done speaking with you. So Albanians used Turkey as a safe haven but the Turks in Macedonia doubled in sized in 5 years! It would be logical that the largest group to emigrate to Turkey would be Turks. Again it was classifying these people as Turks and sending them over in the 50's provides the best explanation. It is history now you're right. These people feel Turkish today but disregarding the circumstance they came from and denying their original ethnicity is a shame. Thats how Turkish culture works. And I use Manastir as an example because it is my birthplace.

Btw, many of the Albanians in Turkey do speak Turkish, but many of them have not lost their language. Considering the hostile countries they came from they found refuge in Turkey. They were grateful BUt those those living in large Albanian villages still speak Albanian. I do not for one second believe these other groups speak their language better though! But let's see these Macedonian in Turkey you speak of. Show us many videos of them celebrating in the street with Macedonian flags. Show us traditional sang by them in Turkey. Show us any protest they might have (against say Greece or Bulgaria.) Show us some assemblies held in the Macedonian language. I can find some news and videos about each of the above for Albanians in Turkey. If so many of these ppl were Macedonian speakers it should be easy to find.

PS: Turks and Albanians intermarriage were quite uncommon. If you want you can read excerpts in the Kanun (which many Northern Albanians followed) that explicitly forbid intermarriages with foreigners. Those Albanians in Turkey on the other hand have intermarried.

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Old 07-26-2010, 08:44 PM   #226
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Uskana, If you are from Bitola then why would you use Kicevo as your nickname? Why do you hate Macedonians so much when you originate from our father land? If its about minority rights then why dont you go to Greece and see how the Albanians live there and what their human rights are like.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:49 PM   #227
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Uskana, If you are from Bitola then why would you use Kicevo as your nickname? Why do you hate Macedonians so much when you originate from our father land? If its about minority rights then why dont you go to Greece and see how the Albanians live there and what their human rights are like.
They have rights so obviously it has nothing to do with that. samo nozot go barat drugo razbervajne so nim nema.

Its how it is with these people, you give then a hand they will take your arm.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:00 PM   #228
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They feel like they own everything, this is why you have to keep them on a leash with a zhelezna tupajnca. They have no respect for anybody even themselves.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:53 PM   #229
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Default A tale of two censuses

A tale of two censuses

Still months away, next year's censuses in Albania and Macedonia are already the subject of hot debate over their fairness and validity.

By Klaudija Lutovska for Southeast European Times in Tirana and Skopje -- 13/12/10
photo

Albania will hold a headcount next year. [Reuters]

Conducting a valid census of any population can be a tricky and expensive proposition. The stakes, after all, can be exceedingly high: a finite amount of resources are divided among various communities, based in large part on their size as recorded in the census.

"The importance of statistics for policymaking and for implementing policy objectives is intuitively obvious," Helmuth Lohan, who just wrapped up four years as head of the EU delegation in Tirana, said during a census workshop held in June.

With so much riding on the outcome, minorities in Macedonia and Albania are scrambling for every possible advantage in the months leading up to their respective 2011 censuses.

In Macedonia, the issue is timing. Albanian political parties argue that the April 1st to 15th timeframe will produce artificially reduced numbers, because many ethnic Albanians are working abroad during that period. They want the census held in July, when expatriates are likely to be home on holiday and able to participate.

In Albania, minorities expect the headcount to provide an exact breakdown of the population by nationality, religion and language. They are demanding that census forms ask about each of these explicitly.

The EU says that the format of a census questionnaire is a country's internal matter.

"Recommendations are very clear when it comes to mandatory and optional questions, especially ethnic, linguistic and religious affiliation," Eurostat Director Peter Everers said.

Concerned they might be massively undercounted, representatives of the Vlach, Macedonian, Serbian, Montenegrin and Roma minorities in Albania signed a joint declaration and sent it to the government.

They say the current version of the census only lists "Albanian" and "Other" as possible answers to a question about ethnic affiliation.
photo

The Roma minority is very concerned it will be undercounted in the upcoming census. [Reuters]

"The Greek, Macedonian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Roma and Vlach minorities -- recognised by the Albanian state in all the international organizations -- are removed," the declaration reads.

The group also accuses Albania of violating the law against discrimination and the Framework Convention of the Council of Europe for protection of national minorities.

The Greek minority has yet to react to the declaration. However, organization Omonia has pursued the issue since the early 1990s in order to determine the exact count of Greeks in Albania, which it claims is around 300,000.

Albania's Deputy Prime Minister Genc Pollo says that the government changing the existing form for the 2011 census is an improvement. Citizens are not required to declare their ethnicity, but an optional column is provided for that purpose, he said.

The new census also steers clear of questions about religion. Respondents have three options -- "yes", "no", and "I don't want to answer" -- to the single question inquiring about religious affiliation.

Some minorities complain that the media isn't covering the changes on the form sufficiently.

"The Albanian media does not [report] information about the minorities' reactions even though we regularly send them statements. The media don't respond to our invitations, and the public is not sufficiently informed about the problem," Nikola Gurgaj, chairman of the Tirana NGO Elinden, told SETimes.

Amid concerns, Albania's Statistics Institute Director Ines Nurja said the original form --which lists all minorities -- will be brought back.

Some however, are sceptical.

"If the Albanian government does not meet the promises for the 2011 census form ... we, the minorities in Albania, will boycott the census," Macedonian Association Prespa President Edmond Temelko said.

Turning to Macedonia, the Albanian political parties are concerned that the 2011 results won’t reflect those in the 2002 census, when Albanians comprised 25.17% of the population. The Ohrid Framework Agreement requires the percentage from the Macedonian government to fulfill obligations towards citizens of Albanian nationality.

"Government officials don't want to comment on speculation that the census will reduce the number of Albanians to under 25%, to abolish their rights acquired within the Ohrid Framework Agreement," Macedonian Deputy Prime Minister Adam Abdulakim, an Albanian, said.
photo

Edmond Temelko says minorities may boycott Albania’s census. [Klaudija Lutovska/SETimes]

The ruling coalition representatives -- Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, representing the VMRO-DPMNE, and the Democratic Union for Integration's (DUI)'s Ali Ahmeti -- agreed to a compromise solution in which a Eurostat team will monitor the census. But the Albanian opposition in Macedonia, as well as Ahmeti's DUI, say that is not enough. They are calling for OSCE and US involvement.

The concerns add to the widespread debate since the 2002 census as to whether Albanians in Macedonia actually constitute a quarter of the population. The census commission president at the time, Zoran Krstevski, resigned over those results, while Institute of Statistics (SIS) Director Blagica Novkovska was dismissed.

According to Krstevski, the census took place after the 2001 armed conflict, and there were many irregularities in the crisis regions -- for example, in Gostivar, where a significant number of Albanians live.

"I resigned because the [then] government froze the census commission's activities three months prior to the census, and we could not meet. During the [2002] census, the Statistical Institute (SIS) Director Blagica Novkovska was dismissed, and then SIS published the results independent of us, which is unacceptable," he said.

Krstevski said the commission should have determined the final result, but was prevented from functioning. "When irregularities were discovered, there should have been a new count, and the commission could not do it," he said.

"Neither the scientific nor the practical parameters and calculations allow for such a large percentage of Albanians. In 2002, they were under 19% and in 2011 they should not exceed 21%," Geographic Institute Professor Nikola Paunov told SETimes.

As expected, ethnic Albanians disagree.

"SIS, its director and the current government will bear an historical responsibility if truly mutual trust is not positively reflected in the coming months," DUI's Hafiz Aliti said.
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The amendments to the law passed on December 6th. Government spokesman Mohamed Hodza, also an Albanian, said the law ensures transparency and a fair census.

The law stipulates that permanent residents in Macedonia, and Macedonian nationals who have been abroad for up to 12 months, must be recorded. The census will be conducted in Macedonian or in the languages of the ethnic communities where they constitute 20%.

The Census Commission will be multiethnic. Fourteen Macedonians and 11 members of ethnic communities will serve on it, including six or seven Albanians.

The census processes are expected to cost Albania 15m euros and Macedonia 14m euros.
[url="http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2010/12/13/reportage-01"]
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:12 PM   #230
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Every country in the region has ruthless laws to make sure foriegners assimilate quickly.

All of those countries, including the E.U are forcing the Macedonian government to do the exact opposite.

Why? The key terms are 'multi-ethnic' and 'citizen' but the policy objectives are clear. All of this blackmailing, and the stupidity of the Macedonian government to change 70 laws aimed at greater decentralization, is clearly railroading the country toward a split of some kind, along Albanian / Macedonian lines.
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