Macedonia and the European Union

[Albo]

I would say it's probably a a bit more.. simply because it's too hard to know exactly in the mixed regions what went on.. but it's widely known that around 12,000 Albanian now have official sdsm party membership.. so going on that figure where mostly male figures of the household would be signed up members you could argue that they could potentially have around 50,000 potential voters in the near future (average 4 voters per household)

[mklion]

I would say it's probably a a bit more.. simply because it's too hard to know exactly in the mixed regions what went on.. but it's widely known that around 12,000 Albanian now have official sdsm party membership.. so going on that figure where mostly male figures of the household would be signed up members you could argue that they could potentially have around 50,000 potential voters in the near future (average 4 voters per household)

No your wrong. 25000 Albanians voted for SDSM. You are 100% wrong and I am showing you are wrong with Statistical Fact not conjecture.

The majority of new votes from 2011 to 2016 for SDSM came from these Ethnically PURE MACEDONIAN municipalities:

1. Electoral Unit #4 - South Eastern Macedonia
2. Municipalities around Skopje Region Karpos, Kisela Voda, Aerodrom, Gorce Petrov
3. Other regions in Macedonia including Bitola, Veles and Stip.

No Albanians live in any of these areas and they accounted for the majority of the increase in new votes for SDSM from 2011 to 2016 elections.

Why do Albanians try to inflate their numbers for everything? LoL

[Albo]

Look I'm not trying to increase anything.. firstly just looking at the numbers..( I said "in the near future" - if support grows - they could reach 50,000 )Albania parties received around 20,000 votes less this election compared to the last.. you there you have the main base... plus there was an increase of voters.. so your right it's around 25k but I would say a bit more because I know first hand that in regions where Albanians are a minority many voted for sdsm..

[vicsinad]

Mklion:

Do you have any insight on other minorities that voted for SDS and DPNE, such as Serbs, Roma and Turks? Do you also have any idea of how many Albanians voted for SDS in 2011?

Based on your information, demographics statistics, and previous coalition partnerships, I'm venturing to guess that about 360,000 SDS voters were ethnic Macedonians and that 435,000 DPNE voters were ethnic Macedonians. About 45,000 ethnic Macedonian votes went to other parties.

So then we have about 360,000 SDS ethnic Macedonian voters and 480,000 non-SDS ethnic Macedonian voters, which would mean about 57% of ethnic Macedonians voted for non-SDS parties while 43% went to SDS.

Does this sound close?

[Gocka]

Ive tried to bring this up before, and if I recall I got a lot of silence, then when I complained about no one engaging the topic the few answers that I got were along the lines of " its up to the people who live in ROM to do the heavy lifting". I still strongly disagree with that perspective.

We are willing to discuss war, how cheeky of us, I suppose you will all pack your suitcases and be on the front lines in a flash should it come to that right?

This is where the diaspora has fallen short from day one. If you don't think they in ROM are doing it right, then by all means show them how its done.

As much as we dislike our little terrorist neighbors, you have to admire people like Ahemti. He does what he thinks is right for the Albanian cause, he put his neck on the line and could have very well been killed in 2001, or ever since if there were revolt. Would any of you drop your life and lead a paramilitary group in the hills of Tetovo if it meant a free Macedonia? Ahmeti couldn't have known for sure how things would turn out, in the end he and his clan were rewarded, because they were willing to die for it.

Another thing Delcev hated was "revolutionaries" sitting in cafe's in Bulgaria, preaching to Macedonians about what should be done.

And if the issue is that urgent or that dire to us, and we feel that there is no time to be wasted, then we should be willing to make the sacrifice necessary in order to achieve the end result. It's easy to speak from a platform and it's easy to freely speak our minds about issues and then rest our heads easy at night knowing that we haven't put anything personal at stake other than our free time and our egos. It's much harder to get out there and back what we say with action, to get our hands dirty, to sacrifice more of ourselves then we demand of others. If we really feel this way, then we ought to serve our people by leading by example, as Gocka mentioned.

[vicsinad]

Ive tried to bring this up before, and if I recall I got a lot of silence, then when I complained about no one engaging the topic the few answers that I got were along the lines of " its up to the people who live in ROM to do the heavy lifting". I still strongly disagree with that perspective.

We are willing to discuss war, how cheeky of us, I suppose you will all pack your suitcases and be on the front lines in a flash should it come to that right?

This is where the diaspora has fallen short from day one. If you don't think they in ROM are doing it right, then by all means show them how its done.

As much as we dislike our little terrorist neighbors, you have to admire people like Ahemti. He does what he thinks is right for the Albanian cause, he put his neck on the line and could have very well been killed in 2001, or ever since if there were revolt. Would any of you drop your life and lead a paramilitary group in the hills of Tetovo if it meant a free Macedonia? Ahmeti couldn't have known for sure how things would turn out, in the end he and his clan were rewarded, because they were willing to die for it.

Another thing Delcev hated was "revolutionaries" sitting in cafe's in Bulgaria, preaching to Macedonians about what should be done.

Precisely. And it is not just war, it is also politics, business and culture. We tell them they need to fix their mess, and that we will be there to enjoy the fruits of fixing their mess, but we ain't going to get our hands dirty to fix the mess because it's not our mess.

Delchev and Petrov were both sickened by those types of revolutionaries, and the likes of Sarafov who would venture into Macedonia in order to achieve his goals for Macedonia and then scurry off to Bulgaria or elsewhere while the people dealt with the mess he created. Either we show ourselves to be willing to sacrifice our livelihoods to cause change in Macedonia, or we ease off in trying to meddle from afar and instead focus on what we can do to help our communities in the diaspora. Regarding Macedonia, we should be asking Macedonians in RoM what we can do for them, be it politically, materially or whatever, so we can be a source of support for them and instead of dictating the right path if we are not willing or ready to subject ourselves to the same conditions.

[mklion]

Mklion:

Do you have any insight on other minorities that voted for SDS and DPNE, such as Serbs, Roma and Turks? Do you also have any idea of how many Albanians voted for SDS in 2011?

Based on your information, demographics statistics, and previous coalition partnerships, I'm venturing to guess that about 360,000 SDS voters were ethnic Macedonians and that 435,000 DPNE voters were ethnic Macedonians. About 45,000 ethnic Macedonian votes went to other parties.

So then we have about 360,000 SDS ethnic Macedonian voters and 480,000 non-SDS ethnic Macedonian voters, which would mean about 57% of ethnic Macedonians voted for non-SDS parties while 43% went to SDS.

Does this sound close?

I think it would be almost impossible to know for sure since VMRO and SDSM and even the Albanian parties to a smaller extent are coalitions of different ethnicities.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Vic,

That convoluted mess is driven by your own assumptions of what I said then anything that I actually said. I haven’t tried to minimise or backtrack on anything. I simply reinforced what I have already stated.

Whilst you may prefer to perceive people like Delchev as Ghandi like figures, the reality is he had no qualms in insulting his people, referring to them as sheep, nor did he have any hesitations in dealing with absolutes, labelling his own people Good Bulgarians, Good Greeks, and Good Serbians if they did not entirely devote themselves to his cause (wow talk about catering to political sensitivities, what a bridge builder, no risks of causing divisions there), so don’t go using examples like Delchev or any of our other revered revolutionaries in your attempt to try and pedal that line of holier than thou bullshit with me.

Clearly your defence is focused on SDS supporters, and how you don’t think it is fair to consider their silence against Zajko’s intended course of action as meaning they support the Tirana platform. Fine, we will focus on SDS then.

Now as far as I am aware, the situation right now is that SDS have accepted the conditions of the Tirana platform and together with Albanian parties have constituted a majority in parliament and are seeking a mandate to form government. Let me know if you disagree.

Now for all intents and purposes, we can assume that SDS’ intended course of action is to implement the Tirana platform when they form government (since this is the basis that they were able to form a majority), and they appear to be intent on pursuing forming government irrespective if Ivanov issues a mandate or not. Let me know if you disagree

We all know that backlash from other parties or the opposition will have little effect of either DPNE’s or SDS’s intended course of action.

Like DPNE, the reality is the only ones who actually have the power to change SDS’ intended policies, or rather specifically in relation to this matter being the implementation of the Tirana Platform, deter SDS from its intended course of action, is in fact their own party members, officials and supporter base. So long as their own supporters and officials remain silent and do not oppose the leaderships intentions, then the leadership can only assume they have their full backing and support for their intended course of action.

Now perhaps there is some internal behind the scenes backlash occurring on this matter that we may not be aware of, and perhaps all SDS members are deep down inside against the Tirana platform. Whatever the case may be, clearly such thoughts or backlash is nowhere near significant enough to have caused the SDS leadership to rethink its stance on the matter. If they are actually against the implementation of the Tirana platform, and any internal avenues have fallen on deaf ears and not rendered the desired results, then the next and really only other option to pursue would be external backlash, which could be through the form of media statements, or the most common and most effective form, peaceful protest (where ever they may be, i.e. at their own local SDS offices etc).

Now as far as I am aware, neither scenario has yet to eventuate.

What conclusions can we draw from this?

I can only think of two in this instance, and that is they either are ignorant on the matter i.e. they don’t believe Zajko and his leadership will actually implement the Tirana platform; or they prioritise other matters, whether it be corruption, financial gain, or political principles, over the need to halt the implementation of the Tirana platform.

Either way, the absence of any real or vocal opposition from SDS, whether based on reasonable and justifiable principles (i.e. the fact that DPNE would likely implement the Tirana platform as well) still constitutes indirect support of the Tirana platform, since it does nothing to prevent its implementation.

I know you consider this to be an unfair assessment because I’m equating matters into absolutes, which is something you are not fond of (which I assume is probably because you philosophically believe absolutes don’t exist). But defending the inaction because it doesn’t feel fair to do so only serves to dismiss accountability for the consequences of that inaction, and furthermore promotes Macedonians vindicating themselves for prioritising their stubbornness, hate, and political principles over their unification for something which should transcend such matters. Anyway, I digress.

Who voted for SDS or DPNE at the December 2016 elections has no bearing on someone’s support or opposition of the Tirana Platform. This is due to the fact that the Tirana platform was created after those elections, hence voting for DPNE or SDS at those elections can not constitute support for or against the Tirana Platform.

What does constitute support or opposition to the Tirana Platform is people and parties actions post those elections, being when the Tirana platform was actually introduced.

Whilst I admit that the likely reason DPNE were unable to form a majority with DUI was in relation to the handling of the Special Prosecutor, and that DPNE likely accepted the terms of the Tirana Platform as is claimed by DUI (which they say they hold evidence confirming this, however are still yet to publicly disclose), regardless of their true motives, today DPNE are vocally opposing the Tirana platform.

As stated before, SDS has vocally agreed to committing to its implementation, and the only people who can change that direction, being their party officials, members and supporters, for whatever justifiable reason, continue to remain externally silent.

Clearly you consider the Tirana Platform as treasonous or anti-Macedonian (please correct me if this is wrong), and I’d imagine that its implementation poses a direct threat on the future sovereignty, and character of the Macedonian nation state. I also imagine that this is the general sentiment amongst the majority of Macedonians.

Currently there are a number of political parties (SDS and the Albanian coalition) intent to move forward in its implementation. If Macedonians in general want to stop it, then they must all unite to externally and vocally oppose it.

As hypocritical as it may be, DPNE have started this process by organising protests in the streets, albeit under the banner of civil movement. Whilst there is no doubt that the core of the protest organisers are linked to DPNE, for whatever reason, it suits their purpose to try and disassociate themselves from it and promote the perception of it being a civil movement. This approach allows a potential for Macedonians in general, including SDS supporters who are against the Tirana Platform to steal this movement from the hands of DPNE, much like SDS stole the anti-corruption civil movement protests away from the people.

Nevertheless, through this action, the opportunity of a platform to formally and vocally denounce the Albanisation of the country has been presented to Macedonians to pursue. Macedonians have a choice to either ignore participating in protest of the agenda’s of SDS and DPNE; or capitalise on the opportunity to unite against the Albanian conquest of their country. The choice is theirs, and accordingly, responsibility for the outcome will be on their shoulders.

All I can say is that this may be the last opportunity for a platform they will have.

Now let me be clear, in no way shape or form am I suggesting that people should join the ranks or support DPNE.

Grujo (DPNE) is only interested in reclaiming power so he can keep himself out of gaol. The DPNE leadership is not against the Albanisation of the country, they are responsible for it.

Zajko (SDS) is only interested in obtaining power at any cost so that he can obtain the keys to the vault. Clearly the SDS Leadership have no issues of making RoM a third Albanian state so long as they achieve that goal.

Essentially SDS uses the mob for their purposes.

DPNE uses the mob for their purposes.

Macedonians should use the mob for their purposes.

Or in other terms, as SDS capitalises on protests to support their agenda; and DPNE capitalises on protests to support their agenda; Macedonians who are against the Tirana platform too must capitalise on protests in support of their agenda.

I should point out that Macedonians successfully uniting in protest for this purpose now does not directly translate to granting DPNE a mandate to form government. If successful, it may only open up the door to a return to the election booth. Whilst it admittedly works in favour of DPNE’s agenda, it does not translate to its actual achievement, as ultimately Macedonians will be provided with the choice of where their vote will go (which they can pursue on their own volition, i.e. SDS supporters can still vote again for SDS, etc).

What it does (hopefully) seek to achieve is the removal of the Tirana Platform from the negotiating table and SDS’ and DPNE’s re-election platform, as well as facilitating the unification of our people against further Albanian nationalistic aggression, with the potential hope of actually forming a genuine, unified civil movement going forward (which could hopefully be re-engaged to hold whoever is in government accountable when either party try to sneak the implementation of Albanian demands under the table in the future)

Obviously I am aware that uniting protests under these circumstances carries with it the risk that the SDS leadership will promote the perception that everyone are all DPNE supporters, and, although the DPNE leadership will seek not to portray it that way (prefer to promote the perception of a civil movement), the DPNE leadership will ultimately assume any protestors joining theirs translates to support for them.

However as mentioned before, the fact that DPNE seeks to portray this as a Civil movement can be worked to their disadvantage as it allows other Macedonians, including SDS members who oppose the Tirana platform, to essentially bring other matters to the table along with their protest against the Tirana platform, i.e. anti corruption, anti-authoritarianism, therefore staying true to their principles and clearly defining their political stances, whilst also facilitating the unification of our people in opposition to the Tirana platform.

The defining factor here is that if DPNE want to continue to promote this as a civil movement, they will have to allow participation in this manner to prevail, for to be hostile against such factions would only expose their supposed civil movement as a fraud. Therefore I would encourage SDS supporters that are really against the Tirana platform, who are brave enough to transcend their political principles for the good of their nation, to not only join in under this basis, deliberately expanding the scope of the protest, but also make it visually known that they support SDS. Personally I could not imagine anything more visually compelling then seeing both SDS and DPNE supporters, united against corruption and the Tirana Platform, such a scene would give a clear message to the leadership of both parties that even their own supporters will no longer let this shit fly.

Now the burden to rise above party allegiances and politics will always fall to the supporters of the party that is working to the detriment of the Macedonia people, which in respect of the Tirana platform happens to currently be SDS. If the shoe was on the other foot, that burden would fall on DPNE supporters, which it did in respect of the anti-corruption movement, and where DPNE supporters evidently failed to transcend that barrier in order to balance out the SDS takeover of that movement, resulting in the failure of our people capitalising on the opportunity to unite for a common cause. Time now will tell whether SDS supporters exhibit that same weakness or not. I know that this may seem unfair, but that is the reality of the current situation if Macedonians are to unite for this particular cause.

I realise such a scenario seems like fantasy and it can turn out to all be futile and result in no change at all to the agendas of either SDS or DPNE (even likely assisting their treacherous agendas), but I’d like to think Macedonians would rather take a chance on hope then just roll over to Albanian nationalistic aggression, which if the situation remains as it is, will be the likely outcome.

Again all I can say is that this may be the last opportunity for a platform Macedonians may have to stand up against the Albanisation of their country. The choice is theirs, and accordingly, responsibility for the outcome will be on their shoulders.

You like to use analogies regarding bridges to convey your views. I will do likewise so perhaps you can get a better understanding of mine. To me, the current situation is reflective of a people trying to escape a forest fire and whilst doing so they come across a river which if they cross together will lead to their safety. Now to get across they can either all swim to safety or together build a bridge to walk across. They all agree that ideally there should be a bridge built so that in future they don’t have to risk swimming across to achieve safety, however, there is a forest fire approaching. So there are two options, swim across together now to reach safety, and then work together on building that bridge so that they don’t have to keep their head above water again; or start building that bridge. Based on our views I would say that my priorities lay with swimming across to safety first and then working on that bridge as a result; whilst your priorities is to focus on building the bridge first. Now you may feel that there is enough time to build that bridge before the flames reach you, however I prefer to not take that chance since I priorities escaping the fire first. The difference between the two, is if I’m wrong, then no big deal, but if you’re wrong, we all burn. Regardless, the reality of the situation is that you’re not even focusing on building the bridge yet at all, but rather disputing the actual percentages amongst the people who are for building a bridge and against it, not to mention debating the reasons why a bridge wasn’t built in the first place and who is to blame for it.

Irrespective of the above, I now know that you think that being a Diaspora member means I have no right to an opinion on what happens, or should happen in RoM, that ideally I need to just shut the fuck up and leave RoMacedonians to their own devices. I’ve heard this argument many times before, I mean who am I to get involved, Im just a stranec after all, I should focus on my life in Australia and butt out of anything else. Well do you know what?, after years of hearing this shit, and now hypocritically from you, being another Diaspora member, I think you may have just convinced me.

[Gocka]

I liked the long and thoughtful comment and I think you are right about most of it. I guess the discussion is really about the level of urgency rather than the state of affairs or even desired outcomes.

I will just point out one thing. We have brought up Delcev a lot and I again have to just one more time. If you go back to his time, especially while there was intense debate about whether Macedonians should start the rebellion or not. Now we all know it was a mistake that they rebelled when they did, but what is relevant today is why they rebelled when they did. Now there was certainly a devious element of Bulgarians who knew it would fail and they wanted them to fail, but there was also a naive Macedonian faction that also felt a sense of urgency as you do today. They believed it was either right now or Macedonia would never break free from the Turks. We know that the premature rebellion was crushed and Macedonia's chances at being a free went with it. We are still paying the price today for rushing into the rebellion. That defeat set us back much further than our neighbors who capitalized on that and partitioned us. It also kept us from forming a strong nationality because we had no nation to build it upon. That one mistake nearly erased us from history.

I know you feel urgency, so do I, you've seen some of the comments I've made about ROM and its citizens, I've never pulled any punches. That's pure emotion, that's because we do care even if we want to tell ourselves that we don't. If we put our emotions aside though, and really look at the situation critically and logically, I think you will also conclude that rushing is again a mistake.

Let me explain why. Lets say Macedonians unite superficially just to fend of the Tirana platform, what then, the way I see it only one of two things will happen. Either the Albanians pick up their guns again because they are dug in too deep and too publicly now to turn back or it crushes SDS's mandate and we head back to elections which DPMNE will win. If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place. If DPMNE win another election in these circumstances and with the current leadership they will only further dig in their tentacles and then what? DPMNE has caused more harm than anyone to Macedonia, they are the one who brought on the divisiveness and the Albanization. If they come to power it will tear Macedonia apart anyway.

I will also use an analogy but a simple one, you are focusing on the symptoms not the disease. All the idiotic things Macedonians do and allow to happen, are not the problem, they are the symptoms. The disease in their heads and hearts. They need to want it, they need to be willing to die for it. We are in 6th gear, they are in neutral. Any actions they undertake under this mental state, will only cause more harm. You want them to take actions without them fully understanding why they should take them or what they want the outcome to be, and why they should desire a certain outcome. No nation can survive by proxy.

Having said all that I want to address your comment below. I think you misunderstood us. Its not that you should butt out and shut up. Not even the slightest. We should help, we should support, but certain demands and suggestions should be avoided unless you are willing to go and lead the charge. Come on we are all grown ups, how many of us knowing many of the ego's around here, how many of us would tolerate someone thousands of miles away in comfort and safety telling us we need to die for a cause we don't understand? Sometimes you have to step back and try to empathize. Also Delcev called Macedonians sheep in private conversations, he didn't go village to village and while trying to enlighten and recruit, call people sheep. He was speaking to people who were already enlightened, expressing frustration and being realistic about what was the current state of affairs.

You shouldn't give up but rather ask yourself, would you put your faith in the words of some Kangaroo or Yankee, making anonymous comments and a vague internet forum?

Irrespective of the above, I now know that you think that being a Diaspora member means I have no right to an opinion on what happens, or should happen in RoM, that ideally I need to just shut the fuck up and leave RoMacedonians to their own devices. I’ve heard this argument many times before, I mean who am I to get involved, Im just a stranec after all, I should focus on my life in Australia and butt out of anything else. Well do you know what?, after years of hearing this shit, and now hypocritically from you, being another Diaspora member, I think you may have just convinced me.

[vicsinad]

What we have today in Macedonia is something like this, according to my interpretation of what you’re saying:

For an SDS supporter, the logic goes like this: Did you vote for SDS? Yes. Do you support the Tirana platform? No. Have you voiced your opposition by protesting or opposing SDS leaders? No.
Conclusion: You support the Tirana Platform.

For a DPNE supporter, the logic goes like this: Did you vote for DPNE? Yes. Do you support the Tirana platform? No.
Conclusion: You don’t support the Tirana Platform.

The Tirana Platform is your rallying cry. You are using that platform as the bar. But the platform is nothing but a political manifestation of Albanianization. If you used Albanianization as the bar, your analysis has to change because both SDS and DPNE leaders’ actions, not words, have demonstrated either a lack of courage on the Albanianization issue or a submission to it. You may be intending to use the Tirana platform as a rallying and unifying cry, but the facts demonstrate that the Tirana Platform in and of itself cannot be used in this sense because of both the political context and the greater social and local conditions on the ground. The Tirana platform is just an effect, or symptom, of the Albanianization.

I’ll give you an example. Both my wife and I have family here and there that is relatively evenly split between SDS and DPNE. We come from an area that is one of the last Macedonian enclaves left in the Polog region, surrounded by Albanians. They do not like the Albanianization more than most Macedonians and they are feeling the effects of it more than most. Yet, many of these people do not support the protests because they do not trust DPNE and instead view these protests as DPNE controlled and inspired. Why did they turn to SDS and still support them over DPNE? Because DPNE has let them down several times. More recently in my father’s village DPNE was going to sell the rights to build a hydro dam on a river in the village to an Albanian company. How do the Macedonians view Grujo’s and DPNE’s actions versus what their current words are? Well, their actions were to sell the rights to their villages’ resources to some Albanians, which to the villagers was an affront on the Albanianization aspect, the corruption aspect, and the environmental aspect.

You can repeat this over thousands of times throughout Macedonia from village to village, whether their negative attitudes are toward SDS or DPMNE. The people mostly side with a party depending on who has wronged them the most, or who they view as wronging them the most, and then they align with the biggest party that will defeat those who have wronged them the most. And while you are not saying that rallying against the Tirana Platform is a ‘party thing’, I’m telling you that it can only be perceived as a ‘party thing’ because of the politics of the whole situation. The fact remains that this is indeed a political situation and you cannot practically use the Tirana platform to unite the Macedonians because it has been hijacked. You can still use Albanianization in general, especially if you address Macedonia’s problems holistically, but the Tirana Platform is nothing but a political tool used by both DPNE and DUI in order to get new elections. If this is not true, then it is at least how it is viewed by many and that is the political reality which has to be accounted for.

So then what does saying “half of Macedonians support the Tirana Platform and a bi-national state because they remain silent” accomplish? Absolutely nothing. And to tie this in with what Gocka said and how I responded, no one is saying you can’t have an opinion. That was not the point of either of our posts. With big opinions and accusations comes great responsibility. It is easy to say heavy and damning things like this behind the relative anonymity and safety of a web forum thousands of miles away. Undoubtedly, it is our right and freedom to be able to speak openly and honestly. But what is the value of someone from afar damning a whole segment of our own people into one category while not experiencing what they experience, while not backing those words by getting dirty and instead expecting and hoping for others to get dirty instead? This is what Delchev meant. No one thinks of him like a Ghandi. But most of those things he said were in private or to a limited group of people. He was always distraught after Macedonians fought with one another, it literally made him sick. He preferred heart-to-heart conversations that united Macedonians not tore them apart.

There’s a story of him and his fellow VMRO leaders where after Gruev and Toshev were arguing viciously about a matter, Delchev could no longer handle their bitter words and animosity toward one another. Tears were streaming down his face. He pulled out his gun and told them that they should kill each other if they were going to continuing attacking each other because he couldn’t handle it anymore. When they refused, he put the gun to his head and fired a shot, but it hit the ceiling because another Macedonian tackled him. Delchev would have rather killed himself than be a front-row witness to Macedonians destroying each other. Good thing he left this earth heroically before he saw the real fracturing of the Macedonian people, because it would have torn him into pieces. That’s the kind of Macedonian he was, and that’s the kind of Macedonian we all should strive to be to a certain degree.

The other aspect of it was that Delchev didn’t believe that if you weren’t getting your hands dirty in Macedonia, your role should be limited to support for Macedonians, not as an individual who tries to dictate the course or meddles in how the internal operations work.

If I’m not getting dirty in Macedonia to push my claims, then I am not going to contribute to any of the fracturing or agitation from afar. Our efforts are better directed elsewhere. There is a real world out there and our perception and approach on the issue in Macedonia from here is incomplete at best. The best we can do is be advocates of the Macedonian Cause here and give support to Macedonians there if they want it or need it.

[vicsinad]

I liked the long and thoughtful comment and I think you are right about most of it. I guess the discussion is really about the level of urgency rather than the state of affairs or even desired outcomes.

I will just point out one thing. We have brought up Delcev a lot and I again have to just one more time. If you go back to his time, especially while there was intense debate about whether Macedonians should start the rebellion or not. Now we all know it was a mistake that they rebelled when they did, but what is relevant today is why they rebelled when they did. Now there was certainly a devious element of Bulgarians who knew it would fail and they wanted them to fail, but there was also a naive Macedonian faction that also felt a sense of urgency as you do today. They believed it was either right now or Macedonia would never break free from the Turks. We know that the premature rebellion was crushed and Macedonia's chances at being a free went with it. We are still paying the price today for rushing into the rebellion. That defeat set us back much further than our neighbors who capitalized on that and partitioned us. It also kept us from forming a strong nationality because we had no nation to build it upon. That one mistake nearly erased us from history.

I know you feel urgency, so do I, you've seen some of the comments I've made about ROM and its citizens, I've never pulled any punches. That's pure emotion, that's because we do care even if we want to tell ourselves that we don't. If we put our emotions aside though, and really look at the situation critically and logically, I think you will also conclude that rushing is again a mistake.

Let me explain why. Lets say Macedonians unite superficially just to fend of the Tirana platform, what then, the way I see it only one of two things will happen. Either the Albanians pick up their guns again because they are dug in too deep and too publicly now to turn back or it crushes SDS's mandate and we head back to elections which DPMNE will win. If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place. If DPMNE win another election in these circumstances and with the current leadership they will only further dig in their tentacles and then what? DPMNE has caused more harm than anyone to Macedonia, they are the one who brought on the divisiveness and the Albanization. If they come to power it will tear Macedonia apart anyway.

I will also use an analogy but a simple one, you are focusing on the symptoms not the disease. All the idiotic things Macedonians do and allow to happen, are not the problem, they are the symptoms. The disease in their heads and hearts. They need to want it, they need to be willing to die for it. We are in 6th gear, they are in neutral. Any actions they undertake under this mental state, will only cause more harm. You want them to take actions without them fully understanding why they should take them or what they want the outcome to be, and why they should desire a certain outcome. No nation can survive by proxy.

Having said all that I want to address your comment below. I think you misunderstood us. Its not that you should butt out and shut up. Not even the slightest. We should help, we should support, but certain demands and suggestions should be avoided unless you are willing to go and lead the charge. Come on we are all grown ups, how many of us knowing many of the ego's around here, how many of us would tolerate someone thousands of miles away in comfort and safety telling us we need to die for a cause we don't understand? Sometimes you have to step back and try to empathize. Also Delcev called Macedonians sheep in private conversations, he didn't go village to village and while trying to enlighten and recruit, call people sheep. He was speaking to people who were already enlightened, expressing frustration and being realistic about what was the current state of affairs.

You shouldn't give up but rather ask yourself, would you put your faith in the words of some Kangaroo or Yankee, making anonymous comments and a vague internet forum?

I share most of those sentiments. Our egos are large, as is the amount of luxury time we have to be intellectuals about all of this.

[vicsinad]

To pick up on a few specific points:

Vic,

...don’t go using examples like Delchev or any of our other revered revolutionaries in your attempt to try and pedal that line of holier than thou bullshit with me.

I'll bring up whoever I want to bring up in order to peddle whatever I want to peddle. But if you give me a bike, then I'll pedal that, too.

Irrespective of the above, I now know that you think that being a Diaspora member means I have no right to an opinion on what happens, or should happen in RoM, that ideally I need to just shut the fuck up and leave RoMacedonians to their own devices. I’ve heard this argument many times before, I mean who am I to get involved, Im just a stranec after all, I should focus on my life in Australia and butt out of anything else. Well do you know what?, after years of hearing this shit, and now hypocritically from you, being another Diaspora member, I think you may have just convinced me.

So you can't have this discussion without taking it super personally, huh? You're completely misinterpreting what was said, as addressed in Gocka's post and my previous post. I simply contested how you're coming to a conclusion and then suggested that living afar leaves us removed from the effects or consequences of what goes on there and that there are some things we say and advocate for, and how we say them and advocate for them, that should require special consideration, being that we are not there. You don't have to agree with it, but don't take it too personally.

Either way, the absence of any real or vocal opposition from SDS, whether based on reasonable and justifiable principles (i.e. the fact that DPNE would likely implement the Tirana platform as well) still constitutes indirect support of the Tirana platform, since it does nothing to prevent its implementation.

I know you consider this to be an unfair assessment because I’m equating matters into absolutes, which is something you are not fond of (which I assume is probably because you philosophically believe absolutes don’t exist). But defending the inaction because it doesn’t feel fair to do so only serves to dismiss accountability for the consequences of that inaction, and furthermore promotes Macedonians vindicating themselves for prioritising their stubbornness, hate, and political principles over their unification for something which should transcend such matters.

It's an unfair and an inaccurate assessment. It has absolutely nothing to do with absolutes (I philosophically believe absolute morality doesn't exist, which is something different). And quite the contrary, attacking Macedonians because of a categorization that is unfair and inaccurate is what promotes political principles, stubbornness and hate over a solution; further, attacking their supposed inaction based on the standard you have set ignores a multitude of complexities and is unproductive.

Now the burden to rise above party allegiances and politics will always fall to the supporters of the party that is working to the detriment of the Macedonia people, which in respect of the Tirana platform happens to currently be SDS.

The burden falls on both parties and supporters because the issue really is not the Tirana Platform but Albanianization in general. The DPNE has had years -- years -- to do something about it. In respect to Albanization in all it forms, both parties can be said to be working toward the detriment of the Macedonian people, and thus the burden falls on both parties.

Again all I can say is that this may be the last opportunity for a platform Macedonians may have to stand up against the Albanisation of their country. The choice is theirs, and accordingly, responsibility for the outcome will be on their shoulders.

Saying that this could be the last opportunity could be right, or it could be wrong. Perhaps the last opportunity may have already passed, or maybe it's light years away. But if it is the last opportunity for Macedonians to stand up against Albanization, I find it even more peculiar that you would be so quick to judge half of Macedonians as being supportive of the Tirana Platform, and be vocally adamant about it, when in reality it is painfully obvious that the politics of the situation regarding the Tirana Platform will prevent Macedonians unifying under this guise. Something else is needed, something that counters both Albanianization as well as the social ills that plague government and society, and something that is just as directed at the Macedonian parties' leaders as it is against Albania and ethnic Albanians in Macedonia.

I understand your logic and your points, for the most part. But I don't understand how you think this is the only way to go about trying to address the situation, and I certainly don't understand how you think this could produce results in even a short time, given the entire political context. You want the Macedonians to drop the political context behind it all for the time being, but that's a virtual impossibility because the political context exists. You have to account for that in any solution, because in the current state of things, that is not changing. It's there and it must be factored.

[vicsinad]

Here is the political approach taken by DPNE:

http://www.independent.mk/articles/42696/Day+Five+Macedonian+Parliament+Debate+Remains+Focused+on+Tirana+Platform

VMRO-DPMNE representatives say that ethnic Macedonians who voted for SDSM at the December elections were duped because the platform was made public only after the vote, and the voters had no way of knowing that SDSM would accept changes to the political system of such magnitude after the elections.

Polls have shown that SDSM voters, who are mainly ethnic Macedonian, strongly disapprove of the platform, just as ethnic Macedonian VMRO-DPMNE voters, and VMRO-DPMNE insists on repeating the elections, asking that if SDSM is prepared to implement the Tirana platform, their own voters should first accept or reject it at the polls.

Only a few of the 50 members of Parliament who asked to speak at the session were able to complete their remarks in the first four and a half days, due to the constant demands for response and replies between members of the same or different political parties.

This just shows me a few things I assumed already: Most Macedonians, even those who support SDS, don't support the Tirana platform; DPNE is simply using the platform and protests to gain votes at another election; and SDS doesn't want to risk going to the polls so that both the DUI and DPNE don't get more votes and don't get back in power.

The Tirana Platform cannot be used a unifying cry. Instead, it is being used -- and will continued to be used -- to drum up more support for DPNE.

[Risto the Great]

I have no doubt that every Macedonian contributing thoughtfully to this thread is a good Macedonian with excellent intentions. When I start agreeing with everybody's thoughts, I begin to realise the enemy is us Macedonians, as always. Nothing is simple, but it needs to be in this current predicament.

I predict more suffering for Macedonians.

[Rogi]

President Ivanov is a disease to democracy in Macedonia.

Such a vile approach to push an agenda.


It's amazing that the argument pushed forward is one about transferring of power, yet it is all about the political parties involved and nothing about the people.

If transference of power is what is desired, perhaps then the conversation should instead be about transferring that power back to the people. There are major constitutional changes which chart a very different course for the nation and question its' existential purpose, being agreed to in a post-election situation not part of the election campaigns. Proceeding and arguing purely for 'transfer of power', is effectively duping the citizens.

If the basic principles of democracy are being disrupted, as suggested by the author, then perhaps instead of focusing on power to the political parties, focus on giving the power to the people by letting them decide the course of their nation in new elections.