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Originally posted by Pelagonija
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(Now it's 30 years too late.)
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I don't know what the consequences might be. All I'm asking is why are the Russians doing this now? Why are they so concerned about the constitutional name at this point (After it passed in the parliament)? Why didn't they stand by and support Macedonia 30 years ago, and fight for the constitutional name in the UN or veto (if that was even possible) any references or moves at renaming?
(Now it's 30 years too late.) -
I think the consequence would be nothing more than a perpetuating a great joke. Macedonians relying on the Russians to preserve their UN name of FYROM. I mean, seriously, people will be demanding to be called FYROM as sign of respect soon enough. People have fought under that name and flag!Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
It's utterly cringe worthy and yet another distraction from the cancer in Macedonian society.
Anyway, (just for clarification), aside from all the press suggesting bags of money were paid to the sellout politicians, is there any actual evidence?
There is clear evidence that politicians were let out of jail to vote. This is difficult to believe possible unless they were going to vote in favour of the treachery. Legally this violates every normal process, but from a Macedonian perspective it is all as per normal.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.comComment
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At least two MPs (if not more) have come out and said openly they voted with their convictions, and are not regretting their decision:Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
All 8 DPMNE MPs who voted are apparently under 24 hour police protection. The MPs did not request it - it was a decision taken by the police:
Update:
Sasho Vasilevski, MP of VMRO-DPMNE who was excluded from the party after voting to join the amendments to the Constitution, in a TV21 statement explains why he voted against the party's position.
- With pure thought and with courage and with all the arguments, I decided that Macedonia had the only way towards European integration. The future for our families, for our country and for our perspectives as Republic of Macedonia, once and for all to put an end to the divisions between patriots and traitors, between Macedonians and Albanians. We are one family, which needs to walk together towards EU and NATO integration, with the full support of our friends from Washington - says Vasilevski.
In a televised statement, the lawmakers who voted denied they were bribed and they say they have voted in their conviction and add that they are 24 hours under police protection due to the threats they receive from Friday.
URL:
Last edited by Carlin; 10-21-2018, 08:40 PM.Comment
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Oh I see.. Russia keeps the FYROM name in the UN, Macedonia signs agreement and then calls themselves NMK, NATO and EU will also call them FYROM NMK, I would love for that to happen, I think it would suit the spastics of NMK. They will have two names FYROM and NMK. I see no issue with that.Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
As for evidence re bribes, no such recordings or evidence currently available. I would like to know why is this an issue to anyone on this forum? Did people vote no in the referendum? Did even one person protest outside of parliament on the weekend?Comment
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Levica calls for mass civil resistance. We'll see what it amounts to.
What happened in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia was only a theatrical play where the tyranny of political elites once again showed its ugly face masked as “democracy”!
Individuals from both criminal political associations of SDSM and DPMNE, who are today in the Macedonian Parliament, allegedly as public representatives, after the failed referendum on “Northern Macedonia” have no longer any legitimacy to decide on changing the constitutional name of the Republic against the will of the people , writes in its Declaration Levica.
“Political corruption can not produce legitimate decisions that will represent the will of the people! Corrupt MPs, due to their criminal records, are susceptible to blackmail and bribe additionally sabotaging their political ability to independently and, in accordance with the will of the people, make legitimate decisions in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia today is an occupied, captive state, and the behind-the-scenes anti-democratic games of both political criminal hordes serve one and the same master – capital and money.
They (DPMNE) make noise, act as fake opposition, but when it comes time for the implementation of the vassal fascist decisions of their imperial masters, which the people explicitly refused, these structures – through mutual protection and behind closed doors – decide the fate of the people in accordance with requests by the occupier. Therefore, references and calls for rule of law and established standards and procedures no longer make sense, because this deregulated governing mafia has placed all authorities under its control and deals with political opponents using the apparatus of state coercion and repression.
Because of this, we call for massive civil resistance against all those involved in this constitutional-political crisis and its future overcoming by ultimately fulfilling the following requirements:
● Unconditional suspension of the unconstitutional and illegal government initiative for changing the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia and annulment of the rejected so-called. “Prespa Agreement”;
● Urgent dissolution of Parliament and scheduling early parliamentary elections;
● Forming a transitional technical government with a limited mandate solely for fair and democratic elections, writes Levica in the Declaration of Resistance.
Levica announces that the party will return to the streets in the future and will use all parliamentary and non-parliamentary ways of political struggle in order to restore the kidnapped sovereignty of the people.
The party announces that mass anti-government protests will be organized under the motto of the #People’s-Self-Defense (#NarodnaSamoodbrana), in front of Parliament, where the grave diggers of ASNOM are sitting.
Resistance is our duty, wrote the Presidium of “Levica”.Comment
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So far Levica has been the only true beacon of hope. They seem morally grounded, which is probably why they have virtually no support in NMK. God forbid they elected anyone with any sort of principles. We haven't the type of left that Levica represents probably since shortly after the revolutionary period.
From a political strategy point of view, I have trouble finding a route for them to grow in support. I have met very few people in NMK that espouse the views of a proper left, maybe a little in the youth but still the vast majority seem to lean towards the SDSM former communist brand of leftism. From a political game theory perspective, who do they flip into to being their supporters?
Other than attracting a few people based on an anti Prespa agreement stance, I fear their political platform doesn't appeal to many of those morons in NMK.
One would have hoped that the Levica brand of nationalist leftism could have replaced the clearly destructive SDSM brand of leftism, but so far no dice.
Personally I hope they find a route to power.
Who is the dumb fuck that came up with the 81 vs 80 argument? They are clearly confused and comparing the situation to a 60/60 split in which there isn't a majority until the 1 extra vote switches, but a 2/3 majority is already A MAJORITY and mathematically 80/120 is 2/3rds!!! HOW DO MY GENES ORIGINATE FROM THEIR!!!!Originally posted by vicsinad View PostLevica calls for mass civil resistance. We'll see what it amounts to.
What happened in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia was only a theatrical play where the tyranny of political elites once again showed its ugly face masked as “democracy”!
Individuals from both criminal political associations of SDSM and DPMNE, who are today in the Macedonian Parliament, allegedly as public representatives, after the failed referendum on “Northern Macedonia” have no longer any legitimacy to decide on changing the constitutional name of the Republic against the will of the people , writes in its Declaration Levica.
“Political corruption can not produce legitimate decisions that will represent the will of the people! Corrupt MPs, due to their criminal records, are susceptible to blackmail and bribe additionally sabotaging their political ability to independently and, in accordance with the will of the people, make legitimate decisions in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia today is an occupied, captive state, and the behind-the-scenes anti-democratic games of both political criminal hordes serve one and the same master – capital and money.
They (DPMNE) make noise, act as fake opposition, but when it comes time for the implementation of the vassal fascist decisions of their imperial masters, which the people explicitly refused, these structures – through mutual protection and behind closed doors – decide the fate of the people in accordance with requests by the occupier. Therefore, references and calls for rule of law and established standards and procedures no longer make sense, because this deregulated governing mafia has placed all authorities under its control and deals with political opponents using the apparatus of state coercion and repression.
Because of this, we call for massive civil resistance against all those involved in this constitutional-political crisis and its future overcoming by ultimately fulfilling the following requirements:
● Unconditional suspension of the unconstitutional and illegal government initiative for changing the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia and annulment of the rejected so-called. “Prespa Agreement”;
● Urgent dissolution of Parliament and scheduling early parliamentary elections;
● Forming a transitional technical government with a limited mandate solely for fair and democratic elections, writes Levica in the Declaration of Resistance.
Levica announces that the party will return to the streets in the future and will use all parliamentary and non-parliamentary ways of political struggle in order to restore the kidnapped sovereignty of the people.
The party announces that mass anti-government protests will be organized under the motto of the #People’s-Self-Defense (#NarodnaSamoodbrana), in front of Parliament, where the grave diggers of ASNOM are sitting.
Resistance is our duty, wrote the Presidium of “Levica”.Last edited by Gocka; 10-21-2018, 10:37 PM.Comment
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Risto, regarding the €2m bribes, is there any way of confirming these claims. I'm not doubting them but it would be nice to hear some credible sources. As for the article itself, far from being funny, it was actually quite sad. These so called chest-thumping patriots behaving no better than, as the MINA reporter so colourfully put it, prostitutes. Well, all I can is my bubble of delusional optimism for that place has well and truly burst. It's official, we're a nation of whores. At all levels - from as high up as the Macedonian Parliament to as far down as the little babichka in Bitola who decides to pocket $50 from the $100 sent as a wedding gift for her own niece (I saw this despicable act with my own eyes when I handed the very letter to the said person). So, when all is said and done, changing the name of your own country in the hope of securing benefits is small fry for these people - They will sooner sell their own mothers (to the highest bidder) - literally!Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostHere, read this:
Hilarious for anyone who isn't Macedonian! Plenty of those in Macedonia it would appear.Comment
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We already have the left governing NMK. Socialism is alive in NMK Under the motto zivot za site, the Tirana platform, gay rights and anti nationalist programs currently taking place.Originally posted by vicsinad View PostComment
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I was actually thinking that too but didn't mention it. "Levica" (Left Wing) - What a stupid name for, what I am assuming is meant to be a patriotic people's party. Everything that's wrong with the world today is because of left-wing political ideology. Are they really left-leaning or is it just an unfortunate choice for their name? Similar to the unfortunate name given to the Macedonian Minority's Political Party in Greece - The "Rainbow" Party.Originally posted by Pelagonija View PostComment
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Leftism and nationalism aren't mutually elusive. You forget that most of our most highly regarded revolutionaries were in fact politically leftists yet obviously the biggest nationalists.
Selling out your country has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism.
The reason Levica is good for Macedonia is because so far they are the only political party who has not been tainted by outside interests or scandals, and they espouse a clearly nationalist agenda.
I wouldn't say Macedonia is being run by liberals as much as it is being run by traitors.
At this point I am less concerned about political orientation about social and economic issues as I am about someone stopping the madness.
DPMNE were supposedly "conservatives" how did that end up for NMK?
In NMK you can throw all those traditional labels out the window, they mean nothing.
Because of the actions of both SDS and DPMNE they should never be allowed near political office again.
I don't care if Levica is left right up or down as long as they can make a positive difference.
Originally posted by Pelagonija View PostOriginally posted by Karposh View PostComment
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The Left is anti-nationalist. They're just against NATO and European Union.Originally posted by Gocka View Post
(what follows is google translation)
-Worried about the rise of nationalism after the referendum?
-Of course I'm worried, but I'm optimistic. The abstinence of minorities (especially the citizens of Albanian nationality) shows us that nationalism can be defeated. The fact that there is a world in Greece that stands by our side shows to the people of Macedonia that there is a world of other nationalities that supports its right to self-determination. The VMRO has not won anything politically at this time. Indeed, they did not even boycott the referendum, because, like any bourgeois party, they want to produce political goodwill if the deal is finally accepted and Macedonia joins NATO
==Last edited by Amphipolis; 10-22-2018, 10:05 AM.Comment
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Levica is indeed against nationalism. It seems like nationalism means something different for everyone. To them, nationalism is intertwined with chauvinism, as suggested in their party platform. This aligns neatly with their views against Greece having a say in how Macedonia names itself and Levica's views on self-determination. At the same time, their party platform indicates they are against confining people to nation-states. They want to abolish the ethnic-based political party system in Maceodnia, but support people being free to express their ethnic identity.
I'd say they resemble Macedonian left political movements of the 1930s more than they do modern-day left wing parties. Their site, in English their platform:
Right now, Levica has taken some principled positions regarding the constitutional name change and some ideals that are not far from those that many of us have espoused on this forum (again, in reference to the current debacle). Here's the article Amphipolis provided in its entirety:
Let's face it: all countries have left/right wings. I'd rather the left-wing in Macedonia join with Levica than stay with SDS based on what is known about Levica.Jovan Krajevski, member of the Levica Central Committee
Interview by Panagiotis Xopodidis
Zafe, the US and the EU have been quick to greet the failed referendum, while the VMRO did not dare to boycott it purely
What is the message from the outcome of the referendum on Zafef and the NATO accession process?
The message is a "slap" for the Zafe-Ahmeti coalition, as they have erroneously assumed that they can easily convince the people that by changing their "name" they will earn better living conditions, free health, better jobs, clean air and land etc. government spent more than 3.5 million euros in shallow propaganda, joined a group of bourgeois politicians of the past, local capitalists, modern pop idols, the Orthodox Church - all this for nothing. Neither their slogan for a "European Macedonia" nor their cheap tricks (like that with EU membership, there will be better vaccines!) Have failed to convince the world that there is a bright future after September 30th. Yet, the reaction of government officials, including Zafeff, was to mark the referendum as successful despite 63% abstention. The next day, the US Embassy "confirmed" the success. The imperialists are determined to put the Republic of Macedonia in NATO, whatever the democratic will of the people.
What are the characteristics of mass abstinence?
There are many reasons and they depend on the social point of view. A section of ethnic Albanian citizens, for example, abstained from solidarity with the Macedonian citizens, who were trying to preserve their dignity. The former know that they will need help if someone tries to break their own dignity, so they chose to stand by their fellow citizens. A section of the population, especially the most informed youngsters, felt that the government campaign was very aggressive and aimed to manipulate them, making it hostile to her. Also, a section of the population was against NATO membership. However, the common element is the disappointment over the way the government handled the country's need for change, especially against the phenomena of corruption and nepotism. This government, reluctant and unable to cope with these problems, just kept behaving like the previous one. They did not even mention what they promised pre-election.
In the last days before the referendum we saw a parade of foreign leaders in Skopje to support the deal.
From the parade of foreign leaders it became clear that Macedonia's accession to NATO is not insignificant to the imperialist powers, as some might have thought. The NATO plan to build a strong base in the Balkans would be overturned if Macedonia decided not to join the Alliance (so it would be more difficult to join Serbia and Bosnia). Foreigners, as usual, promised economic and cultural prosperity within NATO and the EU. This, moreover, fits with the 27-year dominant propaganda in Macedonia, presenting the US as the future of the country and Russia as the evil, the enemy . There is, of course, a world that feared this fantastic monster called "Russian influence" (overcoming the fact that there are no Russian NGOs and virtually no trace of Russian capital in the country apart from a co-ownership with Bulgaria of a gas station) and fears Russian interference . These two elements, then, are the whip and carrot that led a piece of people to vote on September 30th.
What is your position on the attitude of minorities in the referendum?
As I said earlier, one of the most important reasons that led to their abstinence was solidarity with their fellow citizens. Excluding these, members of minorities are equally disappointed with the government as well as citizens of Macedonian nationality, if not more. Some of them are also against NATO. Some are also disgusted by the aggressive and manipulative campaign of the government.
Worried about the rise of nationalism after the referendum?
Of course I'm worried, but I'm optimistic. The abstinence of minorities (especially the citizens of Albanian nationality) shows us that nationalism can be defeated. The fact that there is a world in Greece that stands by our side shows to the people of Macedonia that there is a world of other nationalities that supports its right to self-determination. The VMRO has not won anything politically at this time. Indeed, they did not even boycott the referendum, because, like any bourgeois party, they want to produce political goodwill if the deal is finally accepted and Macedonia joins NATO.
What was the attitude of Levice at this time?
Levice's position was simple and straightforward: We are against NATO and we support the right of our people to self-determination. Our campaign was meant to "we are against NATO even if we accept our constitutional name" and contained the dissemination of information material in the country, press conferences, attempts to block the referendum by legal means, participation in video debates, assemblies in many cities, activity on social networks, concerts against NATO, etc.
Before the referendum there were internationalist initiatives involving Levice, NAP and other forces. How do you intend to continue?
These initiatives were critical for the Macedonian people to understand that they are not alone and that there is a world outside of Macedonia that supports them. They also showed what the left parties are really upholding and pursuing and that our struggle is different from that of the Social Democrats. We are planning a Balkan organization of left-wing parties and organizations that will jointly stand up against imperialism and chauvinism.Comment
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So, now to see what will happen with the Tirana Platform in the coming days.
Albanian politicians (not all) are proposing amendments to the Constitution to go alongside the name agreement. Will they not vote for the name agreement changes if their demands are not met? Could we end up with no name change, or both a name change and Tirana Platform complete realization very soon?
Скопје, 22 октомври, 2018 - 17:11 (META)
Алијанса за Албанците (АА) и крилото на БЕСА предводено од Биљал Касами ќе поднесат амандмани за албанскиот јазик и за преамбулата, во текот на расправата за уставните измени кои се прават поради исполнување на обврските од Преспанскиот договор, јави „Порталб“.
ДУИ, крилото на БЕСА предводено од Африм Гаши, НДП и ДПА сметаат дека сега не е време за поднесување амандмани, туку е многу побитно да се отвори евроатлантскиот пат за Македонија. Артан Груби од ДУИ дури најавите за „албански амандмани“ ги нарече „неписмен, незналечки фолклоризам на ситните партии, отсуство на политичко-партиски идентитет, недостиг на знаење, некреативност и за неуспешен обид да се наметнат како фактор на мала врата, но го немаат клучот да го отклучат“.
БЕСА на Касами ќе поднесе амандмани за целосна еднаквост на Албанците во Македонија и целосна официjализација на албанскиот јазик, а не како што се наведува сега, за „јазикот што го зборуваат 20 отсто од граѓаните“.
-Како политичка партија најавивме дека ќе бидеме дел од процесот на усвојување на уставните измени, при што ќе интервенираме со уставни амандмани за подобрување на правата на Албанците. Не можеме да прифатиме по 27 години да ги оставаме овие права за „подобри времиња“. Цениме дека сега е времето да се отворат овие прашања. Го поддржуваме Договорот од Преспа, но напоредно ќе интервенираме со амандмани откако Владата ќе го достави предлогот. Не кажуваме ништо ново, нема нови работи. Ќе бараме целосна еднаквост на Албанците во Македонија, Албанците не може да се третираат како малцинство и ќе бараме албанскиот јазик да биде официјален – вели Фадил Зендели, заменик на Касами, за „Порталб“.
Тој не кажува дали својата поддршка за другите амандмани ќе ја условат со поддршката на нивните.
И Алијанса за Албанците, како што претходно најавуваше, ќе поднесе амандмани за албанскиот јазик и за преамбулата на Уставот.
– Ние предупредивме дека ќе поднесеме амандмани, но првин ќе го видиме владиниот предлог, за да видиме што содржи, и потоа ќе решиме. Ќе поднесеме амандмани за преамбулата и за албанскиот јазик – изјави пратеникот Сурија Рашиди за „Порталб“.
Албанските партии од владината коалиција, пак, порачуваат дека сега е најважно да се донесат уставните измени за да стапи на сила Договорот од Преспа и да се отвори евроатлантската патека на Македонија. Артан Груби од ДУИ порачува дека амандмани за албанското јазично прашање и за менување на преамбулата ќе бидат само дневно-политичка пропаганда и се „продавање магла“.
-Амандмани треба да се поднесуваат само за предложените членови на Уставот, а не и за други нешта. Овој неписмен, незналечки фолклоризам на ситните партии зборува за отсуство на политичко-партиски идентитет и зборува за недостиг на знаење, некреативност и за неуспешен обид да се наметнат како фактор на мала врата, но го немаат клучот да ја отклучат. Оние што ги затвораа очите и молчеа кога се остваруваа националните права, денес, заостанати и со незнаење, откако преспаа 15 години, се обидуваат да продаваат магла. Патот на земјата кон НАТО и ЕУ не смее на никој начин да биде попречен, а најмалку за сувопарна пропаганда – вели Груби во изјава за „Порталб“.
И од БЕСА на Африм Гаши велат дека е битно да се усвои Преспанскиот договор и, според нив, сега нема поголем интерес за Албанците од влезот на Македонија во НАТО.
Весел Мемеди од НДП, вели дека не треба процесот на спроведување на Договорот од Преспа да се условува со други амандмани, оти тоа би им служело на деструктивните сили во земјава и во регионот.
И од ДПА велат дека не е променет нивниот став дека ќе го поддржат Договорот од Преспа, пишува „Порталб“.Comment
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Well the other day I read in a Macedonian article that Albanian students from Ohrid were complaining that they have to travel to Struga in order to participate in Albanian language tuition, hint hint..
And more than likely they will implement the Tirana platform.Comment
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