Ancient quotes on Macedonia

[Philosopher]

Yes. Here you are

I will go one step further. Since it was Demosthenes who made the statement "No Greek, nor related to Greeks, but a barbarian" please cite specific evidence directly from Demosthenes where he himself calls another ethnic Greek "no Greek" and "not related to Greeks".

The reason for this quite obvious. In order to correctly interpret the meaning of Demosthenes' words, one must look to his writings, and not to another. If Demosthenes had a pattern of calling Greeks "non-Greeks" and "not related to Greeks", then I will accept that argument that Demosthenes' words have been misconstrued.

However, if Demosthenes is not on record of calling a fellow Greek "not a Greek" and "not related to Greeks", but a barbarian, than his words can only mean what they obviously mean.

[Agamoi Thytai]

I'm not sure what you just wrote, or how it is applicable to Borza's quote. What Borza is stating is that when Xerxes came to invade "Greece", he rested in Thessaloniki in 481 B.C.

You actually mean in Therma, the Greek colony that pre-existed in the vicinity before the founding of Salonica by Cassander in 315 BC. Salonica didn't exist in 481 BC.

Since Thessaloniki is a city of Macedonia, and Macedonia was part of Greece, it would logically follow that Macedonia and the Macedonians would be the first Greeks to submit or surrender to the Persians, not the Thessalians.

Herodotus states, however, that it was Thessaly and the Thessalians who were the first Greeks to submit to the Persians, which would mean that Macedonia was not part of Greece, and Macedonians were not Greeks.

Hmm, that's why I usually avoid to write long posts, the reader often is bored and misses the point. Read my post agian Philosopher. All what I say is that:
Messengers of Aleues' sons, the royal Thessalian family went to Persia before Xerxes campaigned against Greece. They met Xerxes and informed him of the allegiance of their masters to the Persian king. That's why Herodotus considers them as the first Greeks that surrendered themselves to Persians. They actually did it before Xerxes arrived at Macedonia.

However, if Demosthenes is not on record of calling a fellow Greek "not a Greek" and "not related to Greeks", but a barbarian, than his words can only mean what they obviously mean.

Well, neither Persians who bribed him (in order to prevent Macedonians of becoming the leading power in the Greek world) nor Demosthenes himself (who had his own agenda, the restoring of Athenian hegemony and used all means to achieve his aim) were interested to question the Greekness of any other Greek. However, there is at least one such quote of Demosthenes, where he calls barbarian one of his opponents, Aristogeiton:

"The truth is, he is so tactless, so un-Greek in his temperament..."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0074%3Aspeech%3D26%3Asection%3D17

The Greek text reads "βάρβαρος"=barbarian.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0073%3Aspeech%3D26%3Asection%3D17

After all, even Borza doesn' take that seriously Demosthenes statements:

Only recently have we begun to clarify these muddy waters by
revealing the Demosthenean corpus for what it is: oratory designed to sway public opinion and thereby to formulate public policy. That elusive creature, Truth, is everywhere subordinate to Rhetoric; Demosthenes’ pronouncements are no more the true history of the period than are the public statements of politicians in any age.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=614pd07OtfQC&pg=PA5

Anyway, I'll continue with some other ancient quotes on Macedonia. The following passages of Polybius describe events that took place in a pan-hellenic assembly at Sparta, when the Greek world was threatened by subjection to the Romans. The person that speaks is the Acarnanian ambasador Lyciscus:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D32

He addresses the Aetolian envoys Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, trying to convince them not to ally with Rome against Macedonians:

I ask you therefore, Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, who were your allies on the former occasion when you invited this people to join you? Were they not all the Greeks? But with whom are you now united, or to what kind of federation are you now inviting this people? Is it not to one with the foreigner? A mighty similarity exists, no doubt, in your minds, and no diversity at all! Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader; now a war of slavery is threatening Greece against men of another race, whom you think to bring against Philip, but have really unconsciously brought against yourselves and all Greece. For just as men in the stress of war, by introducing into their cities garrisons superior in strength to their own forces, while successfully repelling all danger from the enemy, put themselves at the mercy of their friends,--just so are the Aetolians acting in the present case. For in their desire to conquer Philip and humble Macedonia, they have unconsciously brought such a mighty cloud from the west, as for the present perhaps will overshadow Macedonia first, but which in the sequel will be the origin of heavy evils to all Greece”.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D37

It is very obvious in that passage that the Acarnanian envoy considers Aetolians, Achaeans, Acarnanians and Macedonians people of kindred blood, that is Greek and he also makes a clear juxtaposition between them and the Romans on ethnic basis: Romans are considered as not being of kindred blood but as foreigners who belong to another race.
Look also at the following passages, again from the same speech of the Acarnanian ambassador:

"Chlaeneas said, then, that Philip son of Amyntas became master of Thessaly by the ruin of Olynthus. But I conceive that not only the Thessalians, but the other Greeks also, were preserved by Philip's means. For at the time when Onomarchus and Philomelus, in defiance of religion and law, seized Delphi and made themselves masters of the treasury of the god, who is there among you who does not know that they collected such a mighty force as no Greek dared any longer face? Nay, along with this violation of religion, they were within an ace of becoming lords of all Greece also. At that crisis Philip volunteered his assistance; destroyed the tyrants, secured the temple, and became the author of freedom to the Greeks, as is testified even to posterity by the facts. For Philip was unanimously elected general-in-chief by land and sea, not, as my opponent ventured to assert, as one who had wronged Thessaly; but on the ground of his being a benefactor of Greece: an honour which no one had previously obtained.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D33

Again, you bitterly denounced Alexander, because,when he believed himself to be wronged, he punished Thebes: but of his having exacted vengeance of the Persians for their outrages on all the Greeks you made no mention at all; nor of his having released us all in common from heavy miseries, by enslaving the barbarians, and depriving them of the supplies which they used for the ruin of the Greeks,--sometimes pitting the Athenians against the ancestors of these gentlemen here, at another the Thebans; nor finally of his having subjected Asia to the Greeks.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D34

"Not being able to say anything in defence of any of these acts, you talk pompously about your having resisted the invasion of Delphi by the barbarians, and allege that for this Greece ought to be grateful to you. But if for this one service some gratitude is owing to the Aetolians; what high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? For that Greece would have been continually involved in great dangers, if we had not had the Macedonians and the ambition of their kings as a barrier, who is ignorant?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D35

[Philosopher]

You actually mean in Therma, the Greek colony that pre-existed in the vicinity before the founding of Salonica by Cassander in 315 BC. Salonica didn't exist in 481 BC.

Yes and no. We both know what is meant, and we both know the use of Thessaloníki is anachronistic. We also know Salonica has been known under various names in ancient history.

Hmm, that's why I usually avoid to write long posts, the reader often is bored and misses the point. Read my post agian Philosopher. All what I say is that:
Messengers of Aleues' sons, the royal Thessalian family went to Persia before Xerxes campaigned against Greece. They met Xerxes and informed him of the allegiance of their masters to the Persian king. That's why Herodotus considers them as the first Greeks that surrendered themselves to Persians. They actually did it before Xerxes arrived at Macedonia.

Yes, I understood your post quite well. However, the problem is part chronological and part logical deduction. In Herodotus 7.130, for example, we read the following:

Xerxes asked his guides if there were any other outlet for the Peneus into the sea, and they, with their full knowledge of the matter, answered him: “The river, O king, has no other way into the sea, but this alone. This is so because there is a ring of mountains around the whole of Thessaly.” Upon hearing this Xerxes said: “These Thessalians are wise men; [2] this, then, was the primary reason for their precaution long before1 when they changed to a better mind, for they perceived that their country would be easily and speedily conquerable.

This speech was made by Xerxes when he went to spy out the land and the surrounding mountains of Thessaly. He left Therma for this purpose. At this point in time, he was aware that the Thessalians had surrendered themselves. When this happened is not clear. The footnote reads:

As a matter of fact the Thessalians had determined on their policy very recently indeed; but Xerxes apparently supposes that they had resolved to join him from the first.

Very recently is vague. Herodotus 7.6 is written after Herodotus 7.130, but it seems to relate the Thessalians submitting to Xerxes. But these texts out of chronological order. When were the Thessalians aware of Xerxes ambitions? When did they visit him? Before reaching Therma or after? The evidence seems to suggest before, but either way, I'm not sure it really matters, for Herodotus did not regard Macedonia as part of Greece.

When Xerxes saw from Therma the very great height of the Thessalian mountains Olympus and Ossa and learned that the Peneus flows through them in a narrow pass, which was the way that led into Thessaly, he desired to view the mouth of the Peneus because he intended to march by the upper road through the highland people of Macedonia to the country of the Perrhaebi and the town of Gonnus
7.128

This makes it obvious that Herodotus, as Borza wrote, did not regard Macedonia or the people thereof to be Greek. He was in Macedonia, a land not considered Greek, to launch military action against Greece. Thus, whether the Thessalians were technically first or not (if even true), matters little, for Macedonia was not part of Greece.

The Thessalians may have been the first to submit to the Persians in principle, but it was the region of Macedonia where Xerxes launched his invasion, so from a boots on the ground analysis, it is the region of Macedonia that was first, not Thessaly.

And please do not cite me Herodotus 5.22 with Alexander I proving his alleged Argive descent (though not Macedonian, which was considered a foreign people), and thus establishing himself as Greek. I mean with a Greek name “Alexandros”, the Greeks should have known at once he could only be Greek, yet they protested, even though his name was Greek.

Well, neither Persians who bribed him (in order to prevent Macedonians of becoming the leading power in the Greek world) nor Demosthenes himself (who had his own agenda, the restoring of Athenian hegemony and used all means to achieve his aim) were interested to question the Greekness of any other Greek.

So in other words, you have no evidence that an ethnic Greek would call another ethnic Greek “not a Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but a barbarian”. Do you know why? Because it would be illogical. Such a phrase is reserved for a foreigner, a non-Greek.

After all, even Borza doesn' take that seriously Demosthenes statements:

We all know Demosthenes, his reputation, and his character. He was an expert in rhetoric and propaganda. But Borza himself also knows that Demosthenes barbarian rant against Philip II was not mere rhetoric. Surely you cannot possibly make the statement that Demosthenes only spoke rhetoric. There is no indication of that at all.

Anyway, I'll continue with some other ancient quotes on Macedonia. The following passages of Polybius describe events that took place in a pan-hellenic assembly at Sparta, when the Greek world was threatened by subjection to the Romans.

Your use or rather misuse of Polybius is disastrous. Polybius believed the Macedonians were a separate ethnic people who were the friends of Greece, not ethnic kin of the Greeks.

I therefore beg you all to be on your guard against this danger, and I appeal especially to King Philip. For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would if it were a part of your own dominions. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies in case of attack, and foreigners will be the less inclined to plot against your throne, because they will be discouraged by the loyalty of the Greeks towards you. [p .300] book 5.104

Note the distinction between one ethnicity, Greek, and another ethnicity, Macedonian. Note also Macedonia was outside of Greece. It was not part of the Macedonian dominion. Note the expression “If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies...”, this is not language describing ethnic loyalty, but that of friendship and neighboring states. Note also the statement that foreigners would be discouraged to attack Macedonia because of the loyalty of the Greeks towards Macedonia. Well, if Macedonia was part of Greece, and Macedonians were Greeks, how would this make any sense? Foreigners would be discouraged to attack Macedonia because of their common ethnicity, not because of Macedonia's friendly and favorable political actions toward foreign peoples (i.e. Greeks). This is no different than the expression “Philhellene”.

Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, and the whole race and name of the Macedonians.

[George S.]

How about when aristotle was banished from athens along with others who weren't greek.
What do we know of demosthenes,he hated alexander and phillip and he wishe grat harm would befall alexander to even wish death on him.When he found that alexander he went into such a rage.Is this the greeks who loved to be macedonia?????????Clearly the fighting in cheronea wasn't brotherly love.

[George S.]

agamoi the greeks are a very poor choice when it comes to being macedonian.For a start they are not race way macedonian but greek.Who ever said were related was telling porkies.We are actually distan than close.

[DraganOfStip]

in some instances, “Greek” simply means “non-Jew”.

Correct.
Quoting Isocrates' Panegyricus,50:

So far has Athens left the rest of mankind behind in thought and expression that her pupils have become the teachers of the world, and she has made the name of Hellas distinctive no longer of race but of intellect, and the title of Hellene a badge of education rather than of common descent

Or quoting the Bible itself:John vii. 35, xii.20; Acts xiv. 1, xvii. 4, xviii. 4, xxi. 28:

This word had in Palestine three several meanings; Sometimes it designated the pagans; sometimes the Jews, speaking Greek, and dwelling among the pagans; and sometimes proselytes of the gate, that is, men of pagan origin converted to Judaism, but not circumcised.

Summing up,HELLENE has many meanings,among them are: pagans,barbarians,non-Jews,noble people,educated people,people of high status,religious belief etc.

[George S.]

constellation what do you think of greeks generally?should they give back our lands they took in 1913.I was surprised to read a lot of other eu countries were being taken over not just greeks.So i personally feel that the greeks should restore solun at least to the macedonians.

[Constellation]

constellation what do you think of greeks generally?

I generally have no problem with Greeks, apart from the issue of Macedonia. This is a thorn in both of our sides. However, I would state the following:

The Greek government is a fascist government, and has been since its founding. Greeks are generally very arrogant people and very racist toward the Macedonians and those of other ethnicities. Greeks are very intolerant. I do not trust the Greek government. I do not trust Greeks.

should they give back our lands they took in 1913.I was surprised to read a lot of other eu countries were being taken over not just greeks.So i personally feel that the greeks should restore solun at least to the macedonians.

Yes, Greece should give back Aegean Macedonia to Macedonia, but it will never happen. Greece will never give up that land, not without war anyway. Aegean Macedonia is currently occupied by Greece.

[Redsun]

Greece will not give Macedonia back, it cannot afford to, doesn’t 80% of Greece’s exports come from Macedonia. Its Macedonian Aegean exports that Greece is using to get out of debt, we are helping them.

I would like to get some confirmation; I had once heard that if Aegean Macedonia was to become independent of Greece, the profit from the exported produce alone could support the population of Aegean Macedonia. With the added profit from the tourism industry, the Aegean Macedonians would profit more than any other land of equal size in the south east of Europe. Greece is holding Macedonia Aegean down, it would be much better off without Greece.

Greece is a pedophile, holding on as tight as it can, it doesn’t want to let go.

The Macedonians are working to pay off Greece’s debt.

I thought it was up to the Macedonian’s within the Aegean to have an election, to vote for independence/separation.

C – “Not without war anyway.”

War pigs, they have been calling us “Greek’s” for 100 years… when we do obtain independence then what? Will they shoot what they once had told the world to be theirs, what they considered to be their own people?

[sydney]

Greece will not give Macedonia back, it cannot afford to, doesn’t 80% of Greece’s exports come from Macedonia. Its Macedonian Aegean exports that Greece is using to get out of debt, we are helping them.

I would like to get some confirmation; I had once heard that if Aegean Macedonia was to become independent of Greece, the profit from the exported produce alone could support the population of Aegean Macedonia. With the added profit from the tourism industry, the Aegean Macedonians would profit more than any other land of equal size in the south east of Europe. Greece is holding Macedonia Aegean down, it would be much better off without Greece.

Greece is a pedophile, holding on as tight as it can, it doesn’t want to let go.

The Macedonians are working to pay off Greece’s debt.

I thought it was up to the Macedonian’s within the Aegean to have an election, to vote for independence/separation.

C – “Not without war anyway.”

War pigs, they have been calling us “Greek’s” for 100 years… when we do obtain independence then what? Will they shoot what they once had told the world to be theirs, what they considered to be their own people?

Don't you think talk of independence for any occupied Macedonian territory is a little hopeful and naive, if not delusional?

If the republic can't get it's shit together to be the motherland and protector for all Macedonians, what do you expect occupied Macedonians to do?

[Redsun]

S - Don't you think talk of independence for any occupied Macedonian territory is a little hopeful and naive, if not delusional?

I was speaking of Macedonia Aegean, I didn’t mention any other occupied territories, I’m just optimistic.

Delusional is the acceptance of one’s own or another’s belief with no sense of reality or rationality. Please look up multiple meanings of the word first. Here is an example; someone claiming to be Greek once said to me “you are Greek.”

S - If the republic can't get it's shit together to be the motherland and protector for all Macedonians, what do you expect occupied Macedonians to do?

If the republic politicians can get their shit together, the Republic of Macedonia would still be a “piece” of the motherland.

[Philosopher]

I wonder how many Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia would endeavor to separate from the government in Athens. Perhaps, just perhaps, if our people are the majority in Aegean Macedonia, and they seek autonomy, maybe the EU and the USA will support their efforts of independence or reunification with Macedonia. Can you imagine the EU and the USA supporting political autonomy for the majority of ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia?

I can't.

But if it worked in Kosovo, maybe, just maybe, it can work in Aegean Macedonia.

Highly doubt it.

[Gocka]

Macedonians are no longer the majority in Aegean Macedonia and they are a shrinking minority. Its a pipe dream.

I wonder how many Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia would endeavor to separate from the government in Athens. Perhaps, just perhaps, if our people are the majority in Aegean Macedonia, and they seek autonomy, maybe the EU and the USA will support their efforts of independence or reunification with Macedonia. Can you imagine the EU and the USA supporting political autonomy for the majority of ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia?

I can't.

But if it worked in Kosovo, maybe, just maybe, it can work in Aegean Macedonia.

Highly doubt it.

[Philosopher]

Macedonians are no longer the majority in Aegean Macedonia and they are a shrinking minority. Its a pipe dream.

It may be a pipe dream, that I have no doubt, but I'm not entirely certain that it is for the reason you gave. I suspect many ethnic Macedonians have accepted their new Greek identity and have little reason to rock the boat.

Macedonians are probably the minority regardless, but I suspect the ethnic Macedonian population appears smaller than it really is.

[Redsun]

Money money money.

EU will not allow it, after all the millions of dollars invested into Greece.

The EU will fight for its investment, America would support the EU.

How long does a political party take to control the country after an election? There is always a process period where the government is inactive.

The length of the period of separation would be long and costly; people that had originally voted for independence wouldn’t have the tolerance and discipline to stand strong, half way though there would be doubts risen and constant opposition.

People would chicken out; they would lose confidence after they realize “it’s not so easy.”

I would like confirmation; I have been told that Aegean Macedonia makes more money from export then the Greek lands and if it was to separate, it could support itself very well.

What I had discussed is not a national movement but a financial one, it’s not about minority or majority it’s based on, if you love the land of which you live Aegean Macedonia, then support it. Why should the Aegean’s work so hard to pay off Greece’s debt, how much money does Athens soak out of the Macedonia Aegean a year?