The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[vicsinad]

I couldn’t confirm what you say: a) the name Chlerin/Khlerin, b) the name Lerin as an official (alternate) Ottoman name. I don’t think a city can have two official names.


===

You can't confirm, but yet you've only cited Wiki sources and don't provide any legitimate sources to back your claims. Further, I'm not asking you to accept what I say, but rather what the link from a book written in 1879 said.

Official names were not what they were back then as what they are today. Plus, Florina wasn't even the Greek name for Lerin...Florina is Latin for "blooming flower."

Moreover, even your trusted source of Wikipedia says: "and in early Ottoman documents the forms Chlerina and Florina are both used with the latter becoming standard after the 17th century."

Three things to note, which I already mentioned: 1) both names were used interchangeably; 2) it wasn't until later in Ottoman rule that Florina became more predominant in the administration (as the Greek church and propaganda became more influential); and 3) the word Florina became standard, which is significant, but does not mean official.

[Dejan]

For most cities of Macedonia, the Turks had a slight Turkish version of the Greek or Slavic name

Don't you mean Macedonian name?

How is this not ban worthy?

[Amphipolis]

The sources are not difficult to be found (I will add some later, or at least more info and details about them).

The first reference is actually in the 4-Volume History written by Emperor (and non-stop author) John VI Kantakouzenos and can be seen here at 57-8 or 803:

Αὐτίκα δέ τις προσελθὼν Ἄρμπενος ὠνομασμένος, ἐκ Χλερηνοῦ πρότερον Ῥωμαίοις ὑπηκόου πόλεως, πατρῴαν τε ὡμολόγει εὔνοιαν τῷ βασιλεῖ,

http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/cantacuzene/histoire15.htm

These are some of the oldest maps from 1500s & 1600s mentioning Florina

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/48078

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/31450sm

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[vicsinad]

These maps don't support your original argument, which if you remember, was:

1) Florina was never renamed from Lerin to Florina
and
2) Florina was always the official name of Lerin under the Ottoman Empire.

These Latin based maps just show that the Latin name for Lerin was Florina.

Now it seems like you're trying to prove that certain people had called Lerin "Florina" throughout several centuries. No one's disagreeing with that.

[Amphipolis]

More info:

By 1300s Islamized Slavophones of Illyria call the city Chlerina or Flourida (exact source is not given)

Castle of Florina is mentioned in 1300s in a “Code of Paris” (exact source is not given)

I often find the following phrase “Kantakouzenos writes it as Chlerinon or Flerinon”. Actually as we saw it is only Chlerinon and since the name is only mentioned once in genitive case (Chlerinou) I don’t know if it is masculine (Chlerinos) or neuter (Chlerinon). Chlerina and Florina are feminine names.

The Turkish sources are about 35-40 different decrees (firmans) of local rulers calling the city Florina (or rarely Filorina) and writing the name in Greek or Arab (Old-Turkish) script. These documents have been gathered and published by IMHA (Institute for Balkan Studies).

These maps don't support your original argument, which if you remember, was:

1) Florina was never renamed from Lerin to Florina
and
2) Florina was always the official name of Lerin under the Ottoman Empire.

Yes, both (1) and (2) are correct.

[vicsinad]

More info:

By 1300s Islamized Slavophones of Illyria call the city Chlerina or Flourida (exact source is not given)

Castle of Florina is mentioned in 1300s in a “Code of Paris” (exact source is not given)

I often find the following phrase “Kantakouzenos writes it as Chlerinon or Flerinon”. Actually as we saw it is only Chlerinon and since the name is only mentioned once in genitive case (Chlerinou) I don’t know if it is masculine (Chlerinos) or neuter (Chlerinon). Chlerina and Florina are feminine names.

The Turkish sources are about 35-40 different decrees (firmans) of local rulers calling the city Florina (or rarely Filorina) and writing the name in Greek or Arab (Old-Turkish) script. These documents have been gathered and published by IMHA (Institute for Balkan Studies).



Yes, both (1) and (2) are correct.

I think you've confused yourself.

[tchaiku]

Arnaut (ارناود), Arvanid (اروانيد), Arnavud (آرناوود), plural: Arnavudlar (آرناوودلار): modern Turkish: Arnavut, plural: Arnavutlar; are ethnoyms used mainly by Ottoman and contemporary Turks for Albanians with Arnavudca (آرناءودجه) and Arnavutça being terms for the Albanian language.[34][35][36][37] These ethnonyms are derived from the Greek Arvanites and entered Turkish after the syllable cluster van was rearranged through metathesis to nav giving the final Turkish forms as Arnavut and Arnaut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Albanians_and_Albania#Arnaut.2FArnavut

[tchaiku]

Arbanas (Арбанас), plural: Arbanasi (Арбанаси); old term used by Balkan Slavic peoples such as the Bulgarians and Serbians to refer to Albanians.[4] While Arbanaski (Арбанаски), Arbanski (Арбански) and Arbanaški (Арбанашки) were adjectives derived from those terms.[26] The term Arbănas was also used by Romanians for Albanians.[4] The name Arbanasi is still used as an exonym for a small Albanian community in Croatia on the Dalmatian coast that migrated there during the 18th century.[27]

[tchaiku]

All artificially constructed in the last ~200 years. Your modern Greek language has gone thru so many revisions that it was not finalized until the 1970s.
Speaking of language why is it mandatory for Greek students to study Ancient Greek?
You share the same location due to the influx of immigration to the Greek kingdom since its establishment in the 19th century and continues till this day.
And the culture has been handed to you by the Hellenizing force of the Greek Orthodox Church and your educational system.

Quite simple really.

I want to know more.

[Amphipolis]

One last question.

Am i seeing things? or are Modern Greeks slowly starting to change back to their African roots?

Have a look at Dimitris Chondrokoukis who will be representing Greece in the High Jump.





Voltron......Do you see any resemblance to Alexander the Great?
or are you going to answer yes just so "you can say what you say"

Hmm... yes, I've always wondered about him, but it seems no one else does, so there's no information. His father was also a famous athlete and a sports manager (this is a picture of him). So, maybe his mother is black, but I can’t find anything.



We also have another famous athlete who looked mongrel, called Douvalidis. In his case the reason was that his father was American.



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[Soldier of Macedon]

For most cities of Macedonia, the Turks had a slight Turkish version of the Greek or Slavic name

Finland has several toponyms that have both Finnish names and Swedish names - people wouldn't normally refer to these toponyms as having Finno-Ugric names and Swedish names, or Finnish names and Germanic names. Therefore, you have no need to be a chauvinistic moron when making such comparisons. The so-called Slavic place names in Macedonia are Macedonian. Refer to them as such.

As for Lerin, whatever it may have originally meant, it is clear that the Macedonian variant of the name is closer to that which is first cited in historical record. The Greek and Albanian names for the town are later viarants, perhaps from a Vlach intermediary. In Romanian it is also Florina.

I want to know more.

About what specifically?

[tchaiku]

About what specifically?

About the (modern) Greek language and it's evolution? The post I qouted barely says it all.

I mean the Greek language is one of the best and most commonly used arguments against neo-hellenism? I hope you know what I am talking about.

[Amphipolis]

The so-called Slavic place names in Macedonia are Macedonian. Refer to them as such.

The so-called Slavic place names of Peloponnese are Peloponnesian. Refer to them as such.

No, don’t. I was kidding.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The so-called Slavic place names of Peloponnese are Peloponnesian. Refer to them as such.

No, don’t. I was kidding.

The term 'Peloponnesian' is limited to geography only, it has no linguistic or ethno-national value in the way that Macedonian, Swede or Finn have. But you already know this, which is why your statement above is an intellectually dishonest and stupid comparison made for the sole purpose of trivialising the identity of Macedonians. Take a hike you moron. And no, I am not kidding.

[Karposh]

SoM, I just noticed you pulled the pin on Amphipolis. Just out of curiosity, what was it in the end that finally made you lose your patience with her? I kind of got used to having her around. I think I'm even gonna miss her.