Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • Jankovska
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1774

    #76
    I disagree. Of course there are people who are doing ti for those reasons but mainly it's because they have to. To buy a car in Bulgaria and drive it Macedonia, you don't need a citizenship, you need a company. I was interested to buy one and I know the whole process. You can go to Bulgaria and open a company, all legal. You need to pay solicitors and declare that you have money in the bank. Once all that is confirmed by the court you are given the right to work uvoz izvos. You buy a car which is the company car and you drive it Macedonia. Legally in Macedonia only the person the owner of the company, therefore the car is allowed to drive it and no one else. But if you have a fat pocket it will be easy to get around our police.
    Another thing which you guys don't realise is that it;s not just Macedonians in Macedonia who got these passports, thousands and thousands of Macedonians who lived in the EU illegaly got them too. Young people who were illegal and haven't seen their families for years and years, the only way to get back was to either get a passport or go back and never come back. A lot of people could not afford that because they were the bread winners for the families back home. I understand that it feels like betrayal but mainly people have done it because they had to. If I were put in that position I would have done it too. I could have not stayed and lived in Macedonia with my mother penniless and my father not beeing paid for months. I had to go, so others did too. I have been through that where you need to make a decision about your life and sometimes you need to do it for everyone, not just you. I did not have to go down that road but thousands of Macedonians in the UK had to coz it was their only option. It's not all black and white. If my mother had some unemployment benefits and my dad got paid regulary even if it;s not enough I would have go on to do my degree in Skopje, but reality is they didn't. My parents are not the only one, most people there age are in that group. Those people build the country and now are left with nothing. But our gov every day seems to be finding more and more money to fund projects that are in no way priority. We are in the Diaspora, for us it's pride to see Aleksandar in the middle of Skopje, for us is pride to show how fun and forward is Macedonia, but for the Macedonian people is not. Their daily lifes are survival.
    Last edited by Jankovska; 02-05-2010, 12:47 PM.

    Comment

    • sf.
      Member
      • Jan 2010
      • 387

      #77
      Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
      Where? have a missed something?
      The part where immediately after my post you wrote: "What are you all bitching about?" and then launched your attack against the whole diaspora, especially those voicing concerns.
      Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

      Comment

      • Big Bad Sven
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 1528

        #78
        Originally posted by OziMak View Post
        Jankovska you often post the sad poor Macedonian stories and you are probably showing your sympathetic side as undoubtable there are some poor people in Macedonia but it is the kind of dribble my parents fed me until I went to Macedonia.

        don’t you find it strange how poor people still travel to turkey or Greece for shopping or holidaying or ohrid for holidaying or hangout at the bars in their own city every night but somehow cant afford to have their home phone on or their electricity and water bills are months behind but they just make minimum payment just to keep it on. Then they tell you your just not a cojek if you don’t have a mobile and you have to go somewhere for your annual holiday and in turkey there’s better cheaper shopping never mind add the travel cost to the purchase price and of course your going to hang out at the kaficina every night what are you supposed to do stay home. it’s a matter of priorities not genuine hardship.

        When my parents wanted to pay off the mortgage they tried to get overtime and a few years we didn’t go on holiday and maybe didn’t spend as much on clothing that year but the fridge was always full. On the contrary your firstly thought of as some kind of freak by your own relatives if you spend what they think is a lot on shopping let alone the strange look you get from shopkeepers for buying 3x 2lt bottles of coke a 4lt tub of icecream and an assortment of biscuits. Maybe the look can partly be explained by the fact I later discovered that no one buys the 4lt tub icecream as everyone buys the 1lt and 2lt tubs and god knows how long the 4lt tubs been sitting in the store. You then read in the papers the government is concerned that Macedonians are not buying enough cars in Macedonia and there tax revenue is down as they are getting Bulgarian citizenship to buy a luxury cars because the tax there is so much lower. I have very little time for some of the sob stories from Macedonia. I don’t think someone like in the article who became a lawyer was truly hard up.

        don’t think im painting too dark a picture as I realise there are some Macedonian who are poor. I once saw an old man in what looked like old cloths rummaging through a dumpster and I felt so sad thinking is this what we’ve come to. I know there are some poor Macedonians deserving of our sympathy but I doubt they are the ones taking out Bulgarian citizenship.
        Hahahhah!

        Well said my friend. That’s what I have been saying for many years on the maknews forum.

        Strange that the “poor” Macedonians are able to go to Grease, Turkey, Albania, Crna Gora or Croatia every summer – or go to slovenia or Serbia every winter. For a “poor” people they sure love night clubbing and consuming huge amounts of alcohol and cigarettes.

        We keep hearing about how “poor” the Macedonians are and that they are all facing “starvation” – yet get this: Macedonians are probably one of the biggest tourists of Grease out of all of the peoples in the Balkans. And the real ironic thing is that they keep going to Grease (while they are “poor” for money) even after all the racist bull shit they have to put up with “greek” border guards.

        I have a few cousins who got Bulgarian citizenship so that they can buy the flash car for a cheaper price, they look real good driving around Macedonia with the Bulgarian number plates on their cars….

        This is why we Macedonians are not respected by our neighbors, or the “international community” . We are seen as push overs and people who are easily bought out by the all might dollar. No self respect is shown. You just have to look back in 2004 when we had the chance to remove the traitorous ohrid agreement, yet we all decided to get pissed at the pub al night and wave American flags.

        Comment

        • Big Bad Sven
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 1528

          #79
          Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
          What are you all bitching about? Why don't you give up your Australian, Canadian, British, German citizenship, go back to Macedonia and try and support your family? Try that and than judge. You have no right to jugde. People need to find jjobs, make ends meet, they need to feed their families. While we are wasting billions in renovating a city like Skopje our Macedonians in Eastern Macedonia can not afford bread. You all sit here in great support of the gov bbut most don't support the poor person, the reality is that Macedonia has a lot of poor people, mainly in the eastern part, mainly Macedonians. Has anyone actually cared to help this people? No. So quick to judge.
          If I were in Macedonia stuck in a konfekcija with two kids and haven't been paid for months I would have taken the citizenship. You all expect the people of Macedonia to care about the country but not the country to care about them? Should work both ways. I would do anything to be able to feed my children and afford medical care for them. I don't care what that makes me. And I will be mad if someone from Australia or the UK or Canada thinks they have the right to judge me. Leace the Macedonians be. Everything is done for a reason. Maybe if the gov invested those 100 million euros to create jobs Macedonians will not be running away to Bulgaria, but no we are decorating Skopje. But it;s always the case, the poor pays twice and is always judged.
          Currently there are only 20 thousand people who were so desperate for food and shelter that they had to get Bulgarian slav citizenship. How have the other 2 million Macedonian citizens with out bulgarian slav citizenship survived so far?

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #80
            Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
            Currently there are only 20 thousand people who were so desperate for food and shelter that they had to get Bulgarian slav citizenship. How have the other 2 million Macedonian citizens with out bulgarian slav citizenship survived so far?
            i agree BBS, Its a luxury, not a necesity. How can anyone seriously paint a picture that our people are starving. This is nonesense. They get by ok. I read somewhere that Life expectancy in Macedonia is if not eaqual than residence in australia. Surley a malnourished, poor hygeine, highly stressed Nation can not have such an outlook.

            Yes someone can show me a lady living in a lift well, or at a park bench, but i can show you 20 in Australia for each 1 in Macedonia.



            2002 study by who life expectancy these stats are for females. males are lower. (pfff what does that tell us lol)


            Turkmenistan 62.7
            Kazakhstan 63.6
            Tajikistan 63.7
            Kyrgyzstan 64.5
            Russian Federation 64.8
            Azerbaijan 65.8
            Ukraine 67.2
            Republic of Moldova 67.8
            Uzbekistan 68.2
            Belarus 68.3
            Armenia 70.0
            Turkey 70.0
            Latvia 70.3
            Albania 70.4
            Estonia 71.1
            Romania 71.4
            Georgia 71.7
            Lithuania 71.9
            Bulgaria 71.9
            Macedonia 72
            Serbia and Montenegro 72.3
            Hungary 72.6
            Bosnia and Herzegovina 72.8
            Slovakia 74
            Poland 74.7
            Last edited by Bill77; 02-05-2010, 11:38 PM.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • Prolet
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 5241

              #81
              Jankovska, Your case and my case are totally different, first of all we are citizens we live in those countries, we didnt have to sign our nationalities away we pay taxes ect. Those people who live in Bulgaria and who are citizens there and get Bulgarian Passports because they lived there for a long time thats fair enough, just like the Macedonians in Pirinska Makedonija have Bulgarian Citizenships. However when our people who have never lived or worked in Bulgaria and they have nothing to do with Bulgaria that is a problem so you have to look at things differently.

              Jankovska, Those people who are so stuck up from Skopje are not the old Skopjani, i can tell you from my experience i will never put somebody down who is from another city or village, you shouldnt judge the people like that. Im not spoiled at all, but i will never lower my standards at any cost nor will i lower my dostoinstvo and act as if the world is coming to an end. I've never been a negative person but that is just my character i wont judge anybody else i can only talk about myself.

              Jankovska, Do you honestly think that im spoiled?? Im not comparing you to Gruevski im actually agreeing with you if Gruevski doesnt keep his promises i'll be the first to criticize him dont you warry however right now its not so bad it takes time for changes you cant change everything over night you know that.
              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

              Comment

              • Jankovska
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1774

                #82
                Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                Currently there are only 20 thousand people who were so desperate for food and shelter that they had to get Bulgarian slav citizenship. How have the other 2 million Macedonian citizens with out bulgarian slav citizenship survived so far?
                Yes, at least half got the passports to be able to stay in the EU countries where they were alreay illegaly. Are you so starved and hungry to have an aussie one? Or was it ok for your parents to bugger off but not for the poor people today?

                Comment

                • Jankovska
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1774

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                  Jankovska, Your case and my case are totally different, first of all we are citizens we live in those countries, we didnt have to sign our nationalities away we pay taxes ect. Those people who live in Bulgaria and who are citizens there and get Bulgarian Passports because they lived there for a long time thats fair enough, just like the Macedonians in Pirinska Makedonija have Bulgarian Citizenships. However when our people who have never lived or worked in Bulgaria and they have nothing to do with Bulgaria that is a problem so you have to look at things differently.

                  Jankovska, Those people who are so stuck up from Skopje are not the old Skopjani, i can tell you from my experience i will never put somebody down who is from another city or village, you shouldnt judge the people like that. Im not spoiled at all, but i will never lower my standards at any cost nor will i lower my dostoinstvo and act as if the world is coming to an end. I've never been a negative person but that is just my character i wont judge anybody else i can only talk about myself.

                  Jankovska, Do you honestly think that im spoiled?? Im not comparing you to Gruevski im actually agreeing with you if Gruevski doesnt keep his promises i'll be the first to criticize him dont you warry however right now its not so bad it takes time for changes you cant change everything over night you know that.
                  Prolet what are you on about. Thousands of these passports were taken by people who were already in the western countries illegaly, majority actually. If I have stayed illegaly in the UK for 7 years without seeing my parents I would have got one, afterall why should you be ok to live in OZ and be Macedonian and I shouldn't? No one has given up their Macedonian citizenship however we have examples of MAcedonians in OZ, Germany and many countries where the Macedonian have given up their citizenship to gain Australian, German and so on? They haven't betrayed their country but these Macedonians have? Which one is it? It's either the same for all or not.
                  As for Skopjani you know my opinion about them and I am not changing it. And yes you are spolit, someone who was given everything while growing up and knows nothing about suffering, poverty and simply dreaming about things that to you were normal. You are not just spoilt you are offensive to those poor people with your Grujo's arse licking and I think you should really grow up. You and Big Bad Sven and everyone who thinks people are rich in Macedonia as you have stated, I think you should go there and try and live there. Until you do that you shouldn't have the right to say which is right or wrong way on how to spend the MAcedonian peoples money. You give yours to a different country but yet you are patriots while the others are traitors. The double standards here are funny.
                  U Makedonija ima edna pogovorka vika: Siromaskiot nikoj go ne verue, not I see why it was said.
                  Last edited by Jankovska; 02-07-2010, 05:50 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Bill77
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 4545

                    #84
                    Jankovska, or anyone can answer this if they know, do the Macedonians have to give up there citizenship, to get a Bulgarian Passport? I know majority if not all of Macedonians in oz, have a dual citizenship and have not given up there Macedonian drzavjantsvo.
                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                    Comment

                    • Jankovska
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1774

                      #85
                      No they don't have to Bill, they can still keep the citizenship. I thought OZ didn't allow dual citizenship but I could be wrong? I know for a fact that Germany doesn't allow it so are the MAcedonians in Germany less of Macedonians? In my opinion not,they are not traitors, they just made a decision that was best for them and their family, just like our Macedonians with Bulgarian passports.

                      Comment

                      • Prolet
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 5241

                        #86
                        Australia allows dual citizenship, Germany doesnt. Serbia also didnt till a few years ago...

                        Jankovska, How do you know that we were not poor?? We all have stories to tell, we've all had it tough. Im not the type of person to spew tragic stories, i dont want to spread negative feelings why cant you understand that?? I come from a Poor Family too, but im sure you dont care anyway because in your opinion im a spoiled child.
                        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                        Comment

                        • Jankovska
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1774

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                          Australia allows dual citizenship, Germany doesnt. Serbia also didnt till a few years ago...

                          Jankovska, How do you know that we were not poor?? We all have stories to tell, we've all had it tough. Im not the type of person to spew tragic stories, i dont want to spread negative feelings why cant you understand that?? I come from a Poor Family too, but im sure you dont care anyway because in your opinion im a spoiled child.
                          My mistake than, sorry. I thought Oz didn't allow you to have aussie and MAcedonian at the same time but if it does, great. I know about Germany that it doesn't. Ok kiddo here we go again. If you came from a poor family you would have more understanding as to why people get Bulgarian passports, you don't really try and understand it so I can not think you come from a poor family. If the Macedonians who get Bulgarian passports are traitors than are the ones who get German an so on? Is that ok? Are we putting all in the same basket or not?> I am just here to make a point, you can not claim someone is a traitor and another not. Everyone who moved to Germany did it for better live style , car, money, I guess the same as the ones who get Bulgarian passports. I personally probably wouldn't have taken one, all I am trying to say is that we should have a bit more understanding towards these people and think of ways how to make life in Macedonia better for everyone so it doesn;t have to come to this. Do you agree? To do this we need a solid gov who will makes steps, do things. All I see at the moment is a gov who wastes our money.

                          Comment

                          • Big Bad Sven
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 1528

                            #88
                            Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
                            Yes, at least half got the passports to be able to stay in the EU countries where they were alreay illegaly. Are you so starved and hungry to have an aussie one? Or was it ok for your parents to bugger off but not for the poor people today?
                            The difference between my parents and a certain percentage of the Macedonians who get Bulgarian slav passports is that my parents came to Australia as equals to the Australians, as respected human beings. They weren’t treated like dogs or like they don’t exist, or as fakes. They weren’t forced to declare that they and their ancestors where Australian. And most importantly my parents and their offspring are still Macedonians, unlike the “educated” Macedonians who go to Sofia for school and come back with Bulgarian slav sympathies or even worse, Bugaromans.

                            My problem is with those young Macedonians who get Bulgarian Slav citizenship to get their fancy sports car for a little bit less, or get Bulgarian Slav passports so that they can go to Germany and take drugs and root Romanian hookers. My problem is with those Macedonian students who go to Sofia and come back as Bugaromans.
                            I am not condemning or have condemned the Macedonians that are so poor or have so much bad luck that they need to get Bulgarian slav passports to get money. Unfortunately that is life and some people have to do ANYTHING to make ends meet.

                            Which brings me to my next point, you didn’t seem to answer my question: If there are so many “poor” and “starving” Macedonians in Macedonia that are so desperate and dependant on Bulgarian Slav citizenship for survival, then why are there only 20 thousand Macedonians with Bulgarian slav citizenship? Seems like the other 2 million Macedonian citizens are doing just fine with out the Bulgarian Slav citizenship.

                            Jankolavska, in the maknews forum you where very harsh on the Aegean Macedonians for not standing up for themselves, or for being “greek” and accepting it “greek style” so that they can have materialist things like money, jobs, good life style etc. In some ways I see a lot similarities with the Aegean Macedonians and the Macedonians who “must” get a Bulgarian slav passport……

                            Comment

                            • Jankovska
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1774

                              #89
                              The waiting list is very very long and it's getting longer. Young people want to get away from Macedonia to get jobs and I don't blame them. I don't want to sit in Macedonia and wait for my mum to give me 50 denari za u grad. Why is no one answering to me about the Macedonians with German citizenship? The Bulgarians are not forcing you anything, those are their rules take it or leave it. Everyone still keeps their Macedonian citizenship and everyone in Europe declares themselves as ethnic Macedonian. Germany forces for Macedonians to quit their citizenship, how are those Macedonians different? Are the traitors? Why did you parents move to OZ? for money, better life, hopefully big house, flash car. So all the same really. Don't make excuses like it was ok for your parents to accept the Aussie ways and not for Macedonians to get Bulgarian passports. As a young person I would have not had any opportunities in life back home, I would have had to shag every guy that came my way to buy me a drink and pray I marry a rich boy. Well no thanks to that sort of life and if I were in that position I would have taken a passport out in a heartbit. Also the Macedonians who were iillegaly in the EU? Why should they quit the life they build, the job they have an all to go back and be poor? Snajdi se pa zivej.
                              As for the egejci it's a huge huge difference. The Egejci are not free, they are scared for their lifes blah blah, they are robovi but they do nothing. The Macedonians who have taken passports are not robovi, they have willingly gone and taken them out to bugger off somewhere in Europe. and jebi ga, ama ako nasite vladi ne mislat za siromaskite, ako Dijasporata samo sedi i kako babai na zadusnica muabeti redi, why should they be the only ones to have to take all the suffering and still stay patriots. It's very rear you hear a Macedonian moved back home due to patriotisam from OZ orEU? Why? Because they have the flash car and job and money.

                              Comment

                              • Prolet
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 5241

                                #90
                                Jankovska, What about those who go and marry the Umproforci? I will tell you this about German Citizenship. If you are living in Germany for a long time, you pay your taxes, you are a good citizen and you choose to get German Citizenship its not good but its understandable. Rupert Murdoch gave up his Aussie Passport for an American one..

                                The problem lies when a citizen of Macedonia who has nothing to do with a country, goes to their embassy and signs a document declaring away their citizenship. Its ok if somebody lived in Bulgaria for a long time and took out citizenship by law.
                                МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

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