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Old 05-08-2009, 08:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovak
SoM, you don't either know OCS nor Slovak, or any other West Slavic language for that matter. Why do you shoot blindly by claiming that OCS had influence on these languages?
Blindly? Come on Slovak, are you that blind you can't see how OCS could (and did) influence (to one degree or another) West Slavic during the Cyrillo-Methodian mission? You are trying to downplay these significant events to mere insignificance, I don't share you're opinion, and it certainly has nothing to do with my ignorance of OCS.

If Greek can influence Slavic via the Orthodox Church, if Latin can influence Slavic via the Catholic Church, if Russian can influence South Slavic languages via church liturgy and language during the 19th century, how is it logical that OCS left nothing in other Slavic languages?

Help me understand Slovak, give me a chronology of how it unfolded, for example:

1) South Macedonian dialect used as a basis to translate biblical and other texts by the Salonika brothers

2) Salonika brothers arrive in Moravia, and re-write their texts to suit the local Moravian vernacular (?)

3) This re-written version is a hybrid of OCS and Moravian, or Moravian with some minor OCS influence (?)

4) This re-written version is what we all know today as OCS (?)

5) etc, etc, etc.........

Questions:

a) Were the letters already in the making prior to the request by Rastislav?

b) Why were the translations initially made based on a Macedonian dialect, if they were only to be altered once they got to Moravia?


Quote:
The only vocabulary Constantine and Methodius brought was the one introduced in the Bible and was not familiar to Moravians. Simultaneously a large number of words not present in OCS were taken from Moravian.
Can you please elaborate on that final point.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
a) Were the letters already in the making prior to the request by Rastislav?
Could be, there is no mentioning of it but it is possible that Constantine was perhaps experimenting with a new script for the Slavs as he was familiar with the fact they had no working script of their own. But it's all unprovable really, and the text "About the letters" by Monk Hrabar mentions he got to working on the new script after Rastislav's request, but no mention of which script.

Quote:
b) Why were the translations initially made based on a Macedonian dialect, if they were only to be altered once they got to Moravia?
Because Constantine and Methodius were not familiar enough with the dialect of Moravia or they did not know it was different from the Macedonian one since all the dialects were branded Slavonic. Plus they themselves knew only the Macedonian dialect and it was in this dialect alone they could translate the texts. It is also more likely that the 200 students that were assigned to them in Moravia and Panonia that altered the language under the brothers' supervision.

Quote:
Can you please elaborate on that final point.
I have a short list of Moravian words not originally present in OCS nor other South Slavic languages/dialects:

strižьnikъ - priest; sъnьmъ - council; kazatelь - preacher, teacher; chodatajь - middleman; pravaja vćra - true faith (expression); mьšьnъ - of the holy mass; obrokъ - holy bread; uvarovani - caring for an infant; obraščenie - saved from evil spirits; dogoniti - to catch up; nagъlьstvo - hurry, rush; neračenie - evil; tęža - trial case; kleveta, klevetьnikъ - complaint, complainant; ustrojenie, ustroiti, vъstroiti - restoration; pritъknǫti - to prove.


I have also a couple of words taken from other languages via Moravia:

kružь, križь - cross, from Lat. crux; mьšć - holy mass, from Lat. missa; papežъ - Pope, from Germ. babes; poganьskъ - Pagan, from Lat. paganus; prćfacić - prologue, from Lat. prefacio.

These words then later appear in OCS texts. Most of them are today used only in West Slavic languages.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Slovak
Because Constantine and Methodius were not familiar enough with the dialect of Moravia or they did not know it was different from the Macedonian one since all the dialects were branded Slavonic. Plus they themselves knew only the Macedonian dialect and it was in this dialect alone they could translate the texts.
That sounds reasonable enough. Would it be accurate to then say though, that there are two types of OCS, a Macedonian and a Moravian? Did they co-exist or did one eventually dominate over the other? Can we find a comparison sentence so we can better see the differences?

This manuscript that you mentioned is interesting. Which language of today does it resemble the most, Slovene, Slovak or Czech?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fr...manuscript.jpg

Are these manuscripts enough to ensure that the Slavic tongue of Moravia did not accept any terminology, grammar influences, etc, from that of Macedonia via OCS? Are there no differences in Moravia between the language of this manuscript and the language after the missionaries from Salonika and the introduction of OCS in Macedonian?

Slovak, in your opinion, which Slavic language of today shares the most similarities with the two OCS (Macedonian and Moravian)?
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:59 PM   #14
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I wouldn't know to which modern language OCS resembles most because all Slavic languages have evolved in their own direction. This separation began even before OCS and that is why OCS can be classified as a South Slavic language because it has features found in those languages. I think there was a topic on this forum where I posted the main difference between each group (East, West and South).

To me OCS is very close to Slovak, but not so much the literary language as the dialects. The book I have covers that similarities between Slovak dialects and OCS quite extensively. Modern standard Macedonian is I think less similar to OCS then the dialects down the Struma River in the south towards the Aegean where according to the book I have the closest dialect from which OCS evolved, although it is today not so much similar to it. As for Slovenian, it is too quite similar in grammar and phonology, but I don't know the language enough to comment.

There was only one OCS. There were only more (not just two) ways of writing it. You see, everyone added to this language from their own vocabulary and grammar. The offspring of OCS, the Church Slavonic language, comes in several versions: Serbian, Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Russian. But in all of these, besides the indigenous South Slavic features from the original language of Constantine and Methodius, there are also Moravisms, like the words I mentioned. OCS was an artificial language for no living dialect existed at any time that was like it. It was based on a living dialect, but then words and forms from various areas through which the language passed were added. They weren't added in the beginning and in different areas they were different, but the path of language is clear: from Macedonia to Moravia and from there to Croatia, Serbia, back to Macedonia, and Bulgaria, and from Bulgaria to Russia. That is why Croatian or Serbian church languages have only Moravisms but lack Bulgarisms like the ones Russian Church Slavonic has.
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Old 05-09-2009, 01:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Can we find a comparison sentence so we can better see the differences?
I found a reconstruction the Lord's Prayer in the two versions: one original OCS and one then used in Great Moravia. It should be noted that the one used in Moravia is from which modern Catholic and Protestant prayers originate, while the Orthodox ones are based on the original OCS one, mainly because the Moravian uses words translated from German and Latin that were in usage before the mission of Constantine and Methodius.

OCS
Otьče našь,
iže esi na nebesćxъ,
da svętitъ sę imę Tvoe,
da pridetъ cćsaŕьstvie Tvoe,
da bǫdetъ voĺć Tvoć
ćko na nebese i na zemĺi;
xlćbъ našь nasǫštьnъ daždь namъ dьnьsь,
i ostavi namъ dlъgy našę
ćkože i my ostavĺćemъ dlъžnikomъ našimъ.
I ne vъvedi nasъ vъ iskušenie,
nъ izbavi ny otъ lǫkavaego;
ćko Tvoe estъ cćsaŕьstvie i sila i slava vъ vćky.
Aminь.

OCS with Moravian influence
Otьče našь,
iže esi na nebesćxъ,
svęti sę imę Tvoe,
pridi cćsaŕьstvo Tvoe,
bǫdi voĺć Tvoć
ćko na nebese i na zeḿi;
xlćbъ našь vьšьdćiši dazь namъ dьnьsь,
i otъpusti namъ grćxy našę
ćkoze i my otъpuščaemъ grćšьnikъmъ našimъ.
I ne vъvedi nasъ vъ iskušenie,
nъ vybavi ny otъ neprićzni;
ćko Tvoe estъ cćsaŕьstvo i mocь i slava vъ vćky.
Amenь
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:00 PM   #16
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Thanks Slovak, this gives me a rough idea of some differences. I am going to prepare a chronology of events concerning OCS, I will use our discussions in these two threads for much of the information, when I have it ready I will post it here or on another separate thread and we will re-visit this topic again.
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:15 PM   #17
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That Moravian looks like Slovenian to me?
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarafot View Post
That Moravian looks like Slovenian to me?
Yeah, because you don't know Slovak. Argumentum ad ignorantum.

But lets compare Slovak, Slovenian and Macedonian Lord's prayer with OCS.

Отьчє нашь, (OCS)
Оче наш, (Mk)
Отьчє нашь, (OCS Moravian)
Otče náš, (Sk)
Oče naš, (Sl)

їжє єсі на нєбєсѣхъ,
кој си на небесата,
їжє єсі на нєбєсѣхъ,
ktorý si na nebesiach,
ki si v nebesih,

да свѧтітъ сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
да се свети името Твое;
свѧті сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
posväť sa meno tvoje,
posvečeno bodi tvoje ime.

да прідєтъ цѣсарьствіє Твоє,
да дојде царството Твое;
пріді цѣсарьство Твоє,
príď kráľovstvo tvoje,
Pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,

да бѫдєтъ волѣ Твоѣ
да биде волјата Твоја
бѫді волѣ Твоѣ
buď vôľa tvoja,
zgodi se tvoja volja,

ѣко на нєбєсє ї на зємлі;
како на небото, така и на земјата.
ѣко на нєбєсє ї на зємі;
ako v nebi, tak i na zemi.
kakor v nebesih tako na zemlji.

хлѣбъ нашь насѫштьнъ даждь намъ дьньсь,
Лебот наш насушен дај ни го денес,
хлѣбъ нашь вьшьдѣіші дазь намъ дьньсь,
Chlieb náš každodenný daj nám dnes
Daj nam danes naš vsakdanji kruh

ї оставі намъ длъгъи нашѧ
и прости ни ги долговите наши,
ї отъпѹсті намъ грѣхъи нашѧ
a odpusť nám naše viny,
in odpusti nam naše dolge,

ѣкожє ї мъи оставлѣємъ длъжьнікомъ нашімъ;
како што им ги проштаваме и ние на нашите должници.
ѣкожє ї мъи отъпѹшчаємъ грєшьнікъмъ нашімъ;
ako i my odpúšťame svojim vinníkom.
kakor tudi mi odpuščamo svojim dolžnikom,

ї нє въвєді насъ въ їскоушєніє,
И не не воведи во искушение
ї нє въвєді насъ въ їскоушєніє,
A neuveď nás do pokušenia,
in ne vpelji nas v skušnjavo,

нъ їзбаві нъи отъ лѫкаваєго;
но избави не од лукавиот,
нъ їзбаві нъи отъ нєпріѣзні;
ale zbav nás Zlého.
temveč reši nas hudega.

ѣко твоє єстъ цѣсарьствіє ї сіла ї слава въ вѣкъі.
зашто Твое е царството и силата и славата во сите векови.
ѣко твоє єстъ цѣсарьство ї моць ї слава въ вѣкъі.
Lebo tvoje je kráľovstvo, moc i sláva teraz i vždycky i na veky vekov.
/

Амінь.
Амин.
Амінь.
Amen.
Amen.


The above is the original OCS similar more to Macedonian than to the OCS mixed with Moravian. The latter is more similar to Slovak and Slovene. Slovak would be even more similar because some words were changed during various reforms, for example nepriazeň (нєпріѣзнь) is now Zlé; vezdajší (вьшьдѣіші) is každodenný; cisárstvo (цѣсарьство) is kráľovstvo; hriech, hrešnik (грѣхъ, грєшьнік) is vina, vinník. Mostly synonyms.
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Old 05-09-2009, 05:49 PM   #19
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What an excellent effort Slovak.
Thanks for that.

Might I say, modern Macedonian is closer to OCS than English is to Olde English.
Quote:
да свѧтітъ сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
да се свети името Твое;

да бѫдєтъ волѣ Твоѣ
да биде волјата Твоја
Obviously the only noticeable departure is the use of the definite article.
But i am curious about the significance of the words ending with "t" (Ignoring the "ъ") such as бѫдєтъ and свѧтітъ. It almost looks like the ending is the pre-cursor to the definite article. It does not appear in the OCS (Moravian) or progress to the Slovenian or Slovakian languages.

Any thoughts?
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Old 05-09-2009, 06:22 PM   #20
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The ending -тъ is the ending of verbs in the 3rd person singular present indicative active (that would be it's full name).

Thus:

sg.
1. пішѫ (I write)
2. пісєші (you write)
3. пішєтъ (he, she, it writes)

The 1st person (оn) evolved into -m in most Slavic languages, but only at ends of words, but in Russian for example it evolved into -u (пишу) as it did in the middle of words everywhere else (like сѫдъ > суд = court, trial). 2nd person obviously dropped the -i, and the 3rd person dropped the -тъ in most languages, but again not in Russian (пишет).

The article in Macedonian and Bulgarian originated from the demonstrative pronouns тъ, та, то (that), for example та книга > книга та > книгата (that book > the book), or тъ чловєкъ > чловєкъ тъ > ч(л)овекот (that man > the man). The semi-vowel /ъ/ evolved in most Slavic languages into /o/, while /ь/ evolved into /e/ (but /ъ/ evolved from /u/ and /ь/ from /i/ in Proto-Slavic). The pronouns apparently were used as postpositionally which resulted in the article being added after the word, like in Hindi, Albanian and Romanian, and unlike in English where "the" is used as a preposition.

The rest of the Macedonian articles also evolved from the demonstrative pronouns: proximate articles -ов, -ва, -во, evolved from pronouns овъ, ова, ово (this one here), and the distal articles -он, -на, -но, from pronouns онъ, она, оно (that one there). The same goes for plural forms: ти, тъи > -те, та > -та; ови, овъи > -ве, ова > -ва; они, онъи > -не, она > -на (the pronouns with are masculine, -ъи are feminine, and are neuter gender).
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