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Old 01-16-2017, 07:21 AM   #11
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Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but here's something interesting about Botsaris. It appears that either he or a family member of his authored a Greek-Albanian dictionary. Why would this supposed "Greek hero" make the effort to do that? As indicated below, the format of the dictionary is set out in such a way that the Greek terms are on the left and the Albanian equivalents are on the right. That would suggest that the intent was to preserve the Albanian language in written form. Just a thought. Anyway, the dictionary can be downloaded here:

http://www.glossesweb.com/2011/02/ma...ictionary.html

And this from wikipedia:
Quote:
Botsaris is also widely considered to be the author of a Greek–Albanian lexicon written in Corfu in 1809, at the insistence of François Pouqueville, Napoleon Bonaparte's general consul at the court of Ali Pasha in Ioannina.[12] The dictionary is of importance for the knowledge of the extinct Souliot dialect.[13] However, although the book is known as the Botsaris dictionary, scholar Xhevat Lloshi has argued in several works that Botsaris couldn't have possibly written that dictionary by himself, both because of his young age, and because of a note of Pouqueville that clearly says that the dictionary was drafted under the dictation of Marko's father, uncle, and future father-in-law.[14]

The original manuscript of the dictionary is at the National Library in Paris (Supplément Grec 251). Botsaris titled his dictionary “Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language” (Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (sic)). The Greek terms are in columns on the left of the pages, not in alphabetical order, and the Albanian words on the right, written in Greek letters. Apart from single words, the dictionary includes complexes of words or short phrases. The Greek entries are in total 1701 and the Albanian 1494. On the first page there is a hand-written notice by Pouqueville: “Ce lexique est écrit de la main de Marc Botzari à Corfou 1809 devant moi.” This manuscript, which includes also a kind of Greek–Albanian self-teaching method with dialogues written by Ioannes Vilaras and a French-Albanian glossary by Pouqueville, was donated by the latter to the Library in 1819. The dictionary was dictated to the young M. Botsaris by his father Kitsos (1754–1813), his uncle Notis (1759–1841) and his father-in-law Christakis Kalogerou from Preveza. Titos Yochalas, a Greek historian who studied and edited the manuscript, noticing that some Greek words are translated into Albanian in more than one way, believes that M. Botsaris was writing the Greek words and the elders were translating into Albanian. As many of the entries seem unlikely to be useful either for the Suliots or the Albanians of that time and circumstances, Yochalas believes that the dictionary was composed after Pouqueville’s initiative, possibly as a source for a future French-Albanian dictionary. He also observes that the Albanian phrases are syntaxed as if were Greek, concluding that either the mother tongue of the authors was the Greek or the Greek language had a very strong influence on the Albanian, if the latter was possibly spoken in Souli (Yochalas, p. 53). The Albanian idiom of the dictionary belongs to the Tosk dialect of south Albanian and retains many archaic elements, found also in the dialect spoken by the Greco-Albanian communities of South Italy and Sicily. In the Albanian entries there are many loans from Greek (approx. 510), as well as from Turkish (approx. 190) and Italian (21).
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Sixteen View Post
Souliotes were a sub-category of Arvanites, probably more Hellenized linguistically and politically. A wild warrior clan than managed to live in a semi-autonomous “federation” and had allied or fought with both Turks and Ali-Pasha. Ali-Pasha writes to them in Greek and singles them out from Arvanites, but their original mother language was indeed Albanian. A small percentage of Vlachs also lived in Souli, but I've never heard of Slavs.

Albanian was NEVER spoken in Greek Parliament (unless I’m missing something). This is often written here, but NO, we didn't actually have an Arvanite president, because we didn’t have a President. Greece was not formed by Albanians. Arvanites were a minority, not significant enough (either in numbers or quality) to be EVEN mentioned in the formative proclamations of our country. That goes for their language too.
Interesting.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:05 AM   #13
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In Vlach, the word Sula (Soula, plural: Souli) means spike, something thin, sharp, pointy. Souli mountains seen from afar resemble spikes. In Albanian, Shul means 'post, pole' according to Vladimir Orel, while shullë/shullâ means “sunny spot” and is derived/comes from Latin solanus.

Sula/Soula/Souli is a Slavic loanword though, from the proto-Slavic *sulĭ = "pole, spear" (sulica). The Súľov mountains in Slovakia were named by the many sharp, rocky peaks that look like sharp edges.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BA%C4%BEov_Mountains

PS: The fact that Ali Pasha singled out the Souliotes from Arvanites lends credence to the argument that they were originally something else.


Last edited by Carlin; 10-14-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:14 AM   #14
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Carlin - Ali Pasha singled out Souliotes from Arvanites because they were a more hellenized group politically and culturally.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:28 PM   #15
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Quick summary: Souliotes (Botsaris, Koutsonikas, etc.) were Vlachs from Northern Epirus. They were at war with other Albanian tribes (Chams, Labs, Tosks). They also spoke Albanian, but they were not Albanians/Arvanites. They were Arvanitovlachs and they were married with other Vlachs.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tchaiku View Post
Carlin - Ali Pasha singled out Souliotes from Arvanites because they were a more hellenized group politically and culturally.
Lol ok are we really serious here? You tell me what’s wrong with this post and really consider what you write next time. “Hellenized”? Lol, really now. Where in the world were these hellenes?
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhondoe View Post
When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?"

His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".

Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"
By the way, this is a fake story and reference. I can't find who really first forged this, but as early as 2010 a man with the username CAKIMacedonian in Total War Center Forum writes this:


This is for you..let we laugh now......hhhh
-In the memories of prince Otto, Prince of Bavaria and first king of Greece, when he first time arrived in Athena and Peloponnesus, he said: "These are completely different people than we expected. We expected to find some ancient people, but we found only immigrants from Africa. "
"When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".
King Otto, Zaharias Papantoniou
ahhhha aahhhhaaa where were your ancestors man...hhhh!!!!


By the way King Otto didn't write memoirs either.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
Lol ok are we really serious here? You tell me what’s wrong with this post and really consider what you write next time. “Hellenized”? Lol, really now. Where in the world were these hellenes?
Hellenes were assimilated before the Dark Ages. ''Hellenized'', in modern sense, refers to becoming a modern Greek. Souliotes were Albanians who spoke bilingually Greek and considered themselves Romaioi.
They were a very war-like people, they would kill anyone who converts to Islam from their group, including kids.
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Old 08-08-2020, 01:31 AM   #19
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A piece of historical fiction from Vassilis Nitsiakos’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bnitsiak/

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FANTASTIC DIALOGUE WITH MARKOS BOTSARIS
- Marco Good Morning. I write to you so many years later, etc because I have questions that concern you unanswered...
- Tell me what it is you want to know
- Let me tell you first that I admire you, you are my favorite hero. And I think that in the pantheon of Greek heroes you are one of the top... Some time ago we made a documentary with an English director about the Souliotes. We disagreed about their identity and I was forced to withdraw my signature because of this event
- What was your argument?
- He supported the view that you are Albanians and that the conflict between you Souliotes and Ali Pasha was an intra-Albanian conflict...
- What, he said so? Look at this patriot. First we are Christian Orthodox and he is a Muslim. We Romioi and he is a Mohamethan. We called these Turks. I don't understand about ′′ intra-Albanian conflict ". This was a Mohamethan pass of satrapis, who didn't tolerate our own independent life, our resistance to our own conquering views. We wanted to be free and self-exous...
- Marco, I supported the opinion that you are in the majority of Arvanites, who, since you had a national conscience, was Greek. Did I do right or wrong?
- What I know and I want to tell you is that we were talking Arvanitika to each other but at least the men knew Roman too. We wanted our freedom and we fought not only for ourselves but for the whole of Romiosíni. We all, Arvanites, graics and other Christian Orthodox united by common faith and struggle against the conquerors.
- You, Marco, wrote a Roman-Arvanitiko dictionary. Why did you do that? For what purpose?
- I did this so all our people would learn Roman, because, like I told you, not everyone knew.
- And why would they learn Roman?
- Because this was the official language, the language of educated people, the language of letters. Even Ali Pasha used this and had Roman grammar and other scientists in his yard. When we made our own state, this is the language we would have... the arvanitika were not written, there was nothing written of poems, to say, literature.... it was a homemade speech and for each other, how can I explain it to you....
- Marco, if Ali managed to make his own state, Roman Albanian, what would you do?
- We would fight for our country and for Christianity, for the Roman...
- I notice that you don't say Greek and you say Roman...
- That's what we used to say back then. It was you see the Roman millet, recognized by the Sultan led by the Patriarch of Constantinople. This is how all Orthodox were one....
- Now we say Greek and we all call ourselves Greeks...
- I don't know... This may be better, because it unites us with the ancient ones and puts us all under such an umbrella, so that there are no breeds and tribes special from here and there but all Greeks...
- Marco, I guess you learned what happened after your death...
- I don't have an update down here but I would be happy if Suli and Souliotes exist second and Romiosyni is all united and strong...
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Old 03-16-2021, 01:02 PM   #20
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"The case of Marko Bozzaris is another (and more recent) example. He was an important leader in the Greek struggle for freedom, is a national hero of the Greeks, claimed also by the Bulgarians and Albanians, though it is known that his parents spoke the Vlach language [See this in Walter Kolarz (1946:33). Marko Bozzaris was also the author of a Greek-Albanian dictionary and his wife, it appears, could only speak "Albanian" and "Bulgarian".]"

-- Pages 75 & 76, Memory, Identity, Typology: An Interdisciplinary Reconstruction of Vlach Ethnohistory, by Gheorghe Bogdan (BA, University of British Columbia, 1992).
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