Ancient Balkan Languages - Proto Slavic Words

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #46
    Slovak, taking into consideration the multi-ethnic character of the Scythians, would you find the following description accurate:

    West Scythia: Largely (but not exclusively) Slavic

    Central Scythia: Largely (but not exclusively) Iranian

    East Scythia: Largely (but not exclusively) Turkic


    What do you think?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #47
      That is pretty much accurate, but I would add Northern Scythia as largely Uralic and Southern Scythia as primarily Iranian and Caucasian. Of course there would be a mixing of all these groups in certain points in place and hierarchy, like for example that there would a Scythian general of Slavic descent with his deputy of Iranian and the army made of Turkic and Uralic warriors going to battle in the Balkans.

      The steppe people that came to Europe were not all Tataric as is many time thought by the uneducated. We of course take the highest class into consideration here: the Scythians were Iranian, the Huns were Turkic, the Avars were Caucasian, the Bulgars were Iranian, the Magyars were/are Uralic. And all these ethnic groups were very different in language, culture and religion. And if we look at the lower classes and in time also the higher classes, the ethnic make up of their societies is a bit over-colourful.
      Last edited by Delodephius; 01-25-2009, 07:10 AM.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #48
        That's what some of the archaeological finds seem to indicate, that burials and graves demonstrate a multi-layer of cultural elements.

        I am sure you have seen it, some of the Scythian sites found on Russian territory and the items extracted are absolutely stunning and magnificent, surely not from an uncultured people.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Delodephius
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 736

          #49
          Scythians were a very advanced civilization. Many of their technological advances primarily in the field of building and architecture were adopted by the Mycenaeans and Hittites. Scythians on the other hand received further knowledge in metallurgy and perfected it.
          I suppose you have seen this picture of Scythian soldiers made according to the archaeological knowledge:


          Or this one:
          Last edited by Delodephius; 01-25-2009, 07:45 AM.
          अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
          उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
          This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
          But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #50
            The best known supporter of the idea that Scyhians (at least Western Scythians) were a Proto-Slavic people was Boris Rybakov:

            Rybakov held a chair in Russian history at the Moscow University since 1939, was a deputy dean of the university in 1952-54, and administered the Russian History Institute for 40 years.
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #51
              Slovak, no I had not seen them yet until now, brilliant pictures, thank you

              How did certain cultural elements and knowledge of the Scythians pass on to the Mycaneans and Hittites?

              Were there any cultural elements that were used across all of Scythia, in which there could be some sort of defined links?

              Was Scythia ever under one ruler from west to east?

              How solid is the notion of the Oiorpati being connected to the Krobati/Hrvati? Personally, I do believe it is plausable, as with the Serboi tribe, however, I would like to know what type of Scythians they were prior to their arrival closer to their current homes?

              Sorry to hit you with the questions at once, when you get a chance let us know.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Delodephius
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 736

                #52
                How did certain cultural elements and knowledge of the Scythians pass on to the Mycaneans and Hittites?
                I read this text in Slovenian, I don't have a translation for it, so if you don't understand something ask Zrinski

                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                12. Skiti (Scytians)
                Podobnosti Mikenske arhitekture in umetnosti s skitskima arhitekturo in umetnostjo.

                Skite (Scythians), ali kot so jih klicali Slovani »Čute« in, ki jih lahko najdemo celo v angleško-sanskrtskem slovarju kjer je naslednji vnos: (Saka = Scythians - svetlopolto ljudstvo), omenja tudi grški zgodovinar Herodotus in pravi, »da so se imeli za najmlajše ljudstvo«. To Herodotovo izjavo je potrebno jemati z rezervo, saj so se Grki že v Herodotovem času zelo načrtno trudili dokazovati svojo prvobitnost, kar je skozi tisočletja pustilo, vsaj s stališča zgodovine in, če hočete resnice, zelo negativne sledove. Edino kar je novega v zvezi s tem je, da je ta grški odnos do sveta okoli njih dobil sodobnejše ime, namreč »helenizacija«. Kadar Skite omenjajo sodobni zgodovinarji smo navajeni opisov kot je naslednji:

                Veliki nemiri in premiki narodov v 8. in 7. stol. pred n. št. so bili povod in vzrok, da so se iz azijskih globin nenadoma na pragu tedanjih civiliziranih narodov, kot so bili Asirci, Grki in Egipt, pojavila nomadska plemena »Skitov«. Pred tem so živeli vzhodno od reke »Araxus« to je, ali afganistanske reke »Oxus«, ali pa »Volge«. Njihovo prvo naselitev v južni Rusiji datirajo proti koncu 8. stol. to je v času, ko so se blizu jezera »Urmija« jugo zahodno od kaspijskega morja prvič z njimi spopadli tudi Asirci. V naslednjih nekaj desetletjih, so Skiti doživeli silni razcvet in na svojem vrhuncu ogrožali celo Egipt in pripomogli k razsulu Asirskega kraljestva. Končno so jih Perzijci uspeli ukrotil in jih potisniti nazaj v stepe za Kavkaz.

                Zgornji opis Skitov je verjetno le delno točen. Predvsem so v zadnjih dveh stoletij odkrili, da je to »nomadsko ljudstvo« bilo zavidljivo visoko razvito. Njihova tehnika izgradnje obokov na identičen način kot so to znali Mikenci in Etruščani, kot tudi njihove zavidljivo visoko razvite metalurške obrti ter zlatarstvo kot tudi lončarstvo in umetnost so vzrok za resne dvome o točnosti zgornjega tisočletja starega grškega klišeja o nomadskih Skitih.

                Sicer je pa, ne toliko v kontekstu Venetov ampak, v kontekstu prastarih in veliko preveč ohlapno identificiranih evro-azijskih kultur potrebno gledati na stepe nad Kavkazom in na sibirski prostor dosti bolj pozorno, ker resnično izgleda, da je že v času srednjega neolitika tam cvetela kultura »stalnih naselij«, kar je v nasprotju s popularnim mnenjem in mnenjem velike večine znanstvenikov, da je šlo za nomadsko pastirske skupnosti. V končni fazi bomo najbrž spoznali, da je res šlo za Venete oz. Arijce, ali pa za neko njihovo skupno genetsko in jezikovno deblo, katerega karakteristike so razširjene tako med Indijci na indijskem podkontinentu kot med Slovani po vsej Evropi, o čemer pričajo številne genetske in jezikovne analize evro-azijskega prostora, ob katerih je potrebno omeniti, da raziskovalci razširjajo časovne okvire svojih hipotez vse do pleistocenskih časov tj. obdobja med in neposredno po zadnji ledeni dobi.

                Torej, rad bi opozoril na tiste primitivnejše oblike gradnje s pomočjo megalitskih blokov, iz katerih se je polagoma razvil poznani mikenski in etruščanski »zvonasti obok« - ti. »corebelled vault«, ki so ga najprej dopolnili pri gradnji mikenskih in etruščanskih grobnic in so ga nato razvili do absolutne popolnosti Etruščani, ki so svoje znanje predali Rimljanom, kateri pa so končno to metodo gradnje razširili po vsem antičnem svetu z gradnjami akvaduktov, viaduktov in amfiteatrov, ki vsi slonijo na tem principu skitskega »zvonastega oboka«.

                Naj povem, da so v na jugu Rusije in Ukrajine, v Ruskih stepah nad Kavkazom ter v okolici kaspijskega morja, odkrili ogromno takih zgradb iz monolitov. Če primerjamo način izgradnje, je jasno vidno, da je skitski način gradnje preprostejši in verjetno prvotni ali izvirni, kar pomeni, da je zelo malo verjetno, da bi se Skiti naučili graditi od Hetitov, Grkov ali pa celo Etruščanov. Torej, če sklepamo po arhitekturi in razvoju metod gradnje so skitska naselja nastala pred hetitskimi in se razume pred grškimi. Toda kako je to mogoče, če so se Skiti pojavili šele v 8. stol. pred n. št., to je okoli 800 ali 900 let po ustanovitvi mikenske kulture. Ali pa pomislimo zakaj je že Herodot širil »helenistično propagando«, da so Skiti najmlajši narod na svetu.

                Kaj se je zgodilo v zibelki sodobne civilizacije v času od leta 14 000 do 3500 pred n. št., kjer naj bi se razvili Arijci, Grki, Italci, Kelti in Germani potem pa so okoli leta 900 pred n. št. prevzeli njihovo neolitsko kulturo divjaški Skiti iz Sibirije in se naučili metalurških, zlatarske in lončarskih obrti na nivoju Egipta in najimenitnejših mikenskih in minojskih delavnic. Očitno je nekaj tu narobe! Nekdo je nekoč in nekje začel pisati zgodovino, ki se nikoli ni zgodila.
                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #53
                  Was Scythia ever under one ruler from west to east?
                  I don't know. Greeks usually spoke only of western part of Scythia and that was once ruled whole by Ateus who died in battle with Philip II.

                  How solid is the notion of the Oiorpati being connected to the Krobati/Hrvati? Personally, I do believe it is plausable, as with the Serboi tribe, however, I would like to know what type of Scythians they were prior to their arrival closer to their current homes?
                  Well, the territory the Oirpati inhabited is pretty much the same place the White Croatians inhabited centuries later, the eastern hills of Carpathia, and after all Carpathia is named after the Croats (Khorvati > Khorvatia).
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #54
                    Ok, ok, now that is interesting. In Porphyrogenitus, both the people of White Croatia and White Serbia (Hrovatoi/Hrobatoi and Servloi/Serbloi) are mentioned as living "beyond Turkey and next to Francia".

                    In this instance, is it safe to assume that Turkey is the land of Hungarians and Francia is the land of Germans? I know that you have your doubts about Porphyrogenitus, but where do you think the Croats and Serbs were situated according to his description? It seems like the lands populated by Slovaks, Czechs and Poles, what do you think?


                    As for the connection of the Croat name to the Carpathians, the name itself means 'rock' from Karpa in Slavic, does it not? Is this a possible etymology for the Croatian name? Porphyrogenitus provides the following explanation for the name 'Croats', "in the Slav tongue it means those who occupy much territory". Not too sure about that one, what's your thoughts?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Delodephius
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 736

                      #55
                      In Slovak we have words "hŕba" which means "pile, mound", and for a place that has many hills we say "hrbaté", also "chrbát" meaing "back" (part of body). It is possible that Croat (Hrvat) is someone connected to the word for a hill or better yet a mountain range which reminds of the human spine on the back, so Hrvat could means something like a highlander.

                      The name Serb is present at many locations throughout Europe, many of them seem unconnected. Today we have Serbs in Germany (the Sorbs, Wends) and Serbs in the Balkans. But Serbs have been mentioned by some ancient authors all the way near the Aral sea near Kazakhstan (I'll for the exact author). I don't want to speculate here about from where di the ethnonym Serb or Croat came, if they indeed came from somewhere and what do they mean. I'll need to study that a bit more in detail and I don't have time for it at the present.
                      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                      Comment

                      • osiris
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1969

                        #56
                        i remember reading somewhere that serb and croat are related and come from the same root.ie srb hrb.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #57
                          Originally posted by osiris View Post
                          i remember reading somewhere that serb and croat are related and come from the same root.ie srb hrb.
                          I read that a while back too, and about a proposed relation to the Thraco-Illyrian tribe called the Tribal (Hrb, Srb, Trb).
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • osiris
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1969

                            #58
                            its an interesting question som, in the piece i read they were some type of samartian or persian tribe. do you know why their language is so simmilar.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #59
                              Osiris, lets look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint. Most of us are of the opinion that the Slavic tribes that invaded the south of the Danube were in some important ways related and kindred to the populations of Macedonia, Illyria and Thrace. East Roman writers tend to sensationalise events as all of the destruction was aimed at the Roman establishment such as towns, cities, forts, etc, that is what they mean by the "whole country" was devastated.

                              These Slavic tribes had already crossed the Danube before powerful groups from Scythia such as the Serbs, Croats, Avars and Bulgars came to the same area, and there is no reason to assume that the (relevant) Slavic tribes had differed in any significant way prior to crossing the river. Which leads back to pre-existing 'boundaries' if you will, between the Illyria-Thrace divide, which is often grey and overlapping. Hence, some writers speak of the Dardani and Tribali as Illyrians, others as Thracians, just like today you have the Torlak dialect which is claime by all sides.

                              Generally speaking, this 'boundary' roughly corresponds the Serbo-Croat and Macedono-Bulgar divide where it concerns the sub-groups of South Slavic dialects. Personally, I think the similarities of Serbian and Croatian are due more to the common Illyrian history rather than the closeness shared by the Serb and Croat tribes prior to their arrival in the Balkan area.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • osiris
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1969

                                #60
                                what a pity the ancient greeks were not more curious and diligent in recording the cultures they came into contact with, they seem to have been avery egocentric lot.

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