Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?

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  • astibo
    Junior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 60

    #16
    I dont belive that Pelasgians were black. They were regarded as ancesters of the Macedonians and other non greek tribes. Danaians were the black people..

    Comment

    • lavce pelagonski
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2009
      • 1993

      #17
      well said Ottoman
      Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

      „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        #18
        the greeks themselves were from black africa from the sudan that's one thing the greeks don't want the world to know.The word greece means black people.The greeks are so stupid they won't admit their real past,they are quite happy to steal other people's past & masquerade as their own.They forgot the real macedonians are there & were not going to take their shit anymore.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • Ottoman
          Banned
          • Nov 2010
          • 203

          #19
          Originally posted by George S. View Post
          Ottoman after all that they were turkish & they didn't know about it.THey are too busy on other threads telling us that macedonian names are greek.They forgot to mention what hellenising means.
          Greeks cannot handle the real truth mate thats the problem, look I know my ancestors got mixed with Greeks I accept this TRUTH but our Greek friends cannot accept this, they hate us and call us Mongols all the time but they forget modern Greeks are just like Turks in every way, when I was in Greece I felt like I was walking in Turkey, they should just accept that Greeks and Turks are just the same people these days.

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            #20
            Originally posted by astibo View Post
            I dont belive that Pelasgians were black. They were regarded as ancesters of the Macedonians and other non greek tribes. Danaians were the black people..
            The word "Pelasgians" was used in ancient times as a term meaning "pre-Hellenic inhabitants or original inhabitants" did not necessarily mean "black".
            Pelasgian was not a term describing an Ethnicity. The Macedonians Could have been Pelasgians (original inhabitants) of Macedonia.


            "Pelasgians" was used in early times, was later changed to "Barbarians" (Both meaning not related to Greeks) IMO when things got Nasty

            The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection"

            But regarding the Grecian cities and Islands, these Pelasgians happen to be Black. There Ethnicity and Language (if you can call it that) was "Garamante" a Malinke speaking people.
            Using archaeological evidence and the classical literature C.A. Winters (1983b) explained how the African/Black founders of Grecian civilization originally came from the ancient Sahara. Winters(1983b) makes it clear that these Blacks came to the Aegean in two waves 1) the Garamantes a Malinke speaking people that now live along the Niger river, but formerly lived in the Fezzan region of Libya;
            These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).
            The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
            Winters (1983b) makes it clear that the Garamantes founded the Greek cities of Thrace, Minoan Crete and Attica. The Garamantes were also called Carians by the Indo-European Greeks.
            According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians.
            Again Pelasgians meaning "Pre- Hellenic" or "Original inhabitants" and in this case, the Authors are only talking about Arcadia and many Aegean Islands
            The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes.
            The Pelasgians founded many cities. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii, 402 ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes. Many of these Athenians may have introduced the Geometric style to Greece during the so-called Dark Ages (1200- 600 BC).
            As recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.
            Last edited by Bill77; 01-05-2011, 08:10 PM.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2008
              • 3242

              #22
              Akzion
              Just to demonstrate the unwritten histories of undeveloped countries, read this:-
              Most of what we know comes from Greek and Roman sources, and recent archaeological excavations in the area, though large areas in ruins are still unexcavated.
              Surely you cannot be purporting to claim history is what it is according to sources you have? There is much to be discovered, disseminated and woven logically into the fabric of all history.
              On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

              Comment

              • Bill77
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 4545

                #23
                LOL
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians
                The name Pelasgians (Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoν, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgσs) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that was either the ancestors of the Greeks or who preceded the Greeks in Greece
                Thats what i am getting at all along. Greek were black if their ancestors the Pelasgians were Black.


                Using archaeological evidence and the classical literature C.A. Winters (1983b) explained how the African/Black founders of Grecian civilization originally came from the ancient Sahara. Winters(1983b) makes it clear that these Blacks came to the Aegean in two waves 1) the Garamantes a Malinke speaking people that now live along the Niger river, but formerly lived in the Fezzan region of Libya;
                These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).
                The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
                Winters (1983b) makes it clear that the Garamantes founded the Greek cities of Thrace, Minoan Crete and Attica. The Garamantes were also called Carians by the Indo-European Greeks.
                According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians.
                The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes.
                The Pelasgians founded many cities. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii, 402 ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes. Many of these Athenians may have introduced the Geometric style to Greece during the so-called Dark Ages (1200- 600 BC).
                As recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.
                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #24
                  the greeks shoul accept it & eat humble cake or humble pie.ALso they should learn that they are not macedonians they claim to be .
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Bill77
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 4545

                    #25
                    Agamoi Thytai,

                    Since you love Theater (going by your Avatar) here is something that would interest you. But be aware, Its not from wikipedia and i am sorry to disappoint you.


                    The Negro In Ancient Greece
                    [originally published in American Anthropologist, 50:31-44. 1948]
                    FRANK M. SNOWDEN, JR.
                    Howard University


                    The theatre also served to acquaint the
                    Greek with the Negro. It is not surprising that the
                    Negro became a familiar character on the Greek
                    stage, since he had long been known in Greek
                    mythology. The Negro appearing on certain
                    coins, according to several scholars, is Delphos,
                    the eponymous hero of Delphi......

                    The Negro, therefore, was comparatively
                    well known to the Greek in mythology. It is
                    reasonable to assume that plays which presented
                    these and similar myths helped, in many cases, to
                    familiarize the Greek with the Negroid type. The
                    Memnon or Aithiopes of Sophocles and possibly
                    the Memnon of Aeschylus had an Ethiopian
                    chorus.........
                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #26
                      Why would a negro connection to Greece be so hard to believe?
                      Look how close Africa is to Greece. I still think native languages around Libya (and nearby) should be looked at closely to find some explanation for the Non European language described today as "Greek".
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #27
                        RTG how about the black athena.Even the name Athena is not even greek.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Agamoi Thytai
                          Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 198

                          #28
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          Why would a negro connection to Greece be so hard to believe?Look how close Africa is to Greece.
                          John Lawrence Angel,a famous British-American anthropologist carried out a genetical analysis of ancient Greek skeletons in 1945 and he didn't detected any such connection.

                          He classified the ancient Greeks into 6 distinct groups:A Basic white,B Mediterraneans,C Alpines,D Nordic Iranian,E Mixed Alpines and F Dinaric Mediterranean.He didn't find any traces of black genes:

                          Unlimited space to host images, easy to use image uploader, albums, photo hosting, sharing, dynamic image resizing on web and mobile.

                          His research covered a period from 3.000 BC to 1.300 AD.
                          He also wrote of a genetic continuity in Greece:

                          "Smooth period to period change in skull measurements from third millennium BC onward reveals essential genetic continuity in Greece (Angel, '44) "


                          Note also this,from the same edition of American Journal of Physical Anthropology:

                          "Skeletal evidence can now destroy positively the fancy that cultural efflorescence in historically critical Greece was the achievement of an inbred Nordic aristocracy".

                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          I still think native languages around Libya (and nearby) should be looked at closely to find some explanation for the Non European language described today as "Greek".
                          Greek is certainly an IE language and no serious linguist ever questioned it.Had you theory been correct it wouldn't have take too much time for linguists to confirm it.
                          "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                          Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                          Comment

                          • Agamoi Thytai
                            Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 198

                            #29
                            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                            LOL


                            Thats what i am getting at all along. Greek were black if their ancestors the Pelasgians were Black.
                            Bill,i can't remember whether it was you or George.S who claimed in another thread that Pelasgians were white becaUse the name itself is connected to the Macedonian word for "white" and that ancient Macedonians were themselves of Pelasgian origin.Anyway,even if it was neither you nor George,i've seen other Macedonians claiming all the above.
                            Probably because most of 19th century historians who didn't consider Macedonians as Greek also claimed they were of Pelasgian stock,LOL!
                            "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                            Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                            Comment

                            • Agamoi Thytai
                              Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 198

                              #30
                              Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                              Agamoi Thytai,

                              Since you love Theater (going by your Avatar) here is something that would interest you. But be aware, Its not from wikipedia and i am sorry to disappoint you.


                              The Negro In Ancient Greece
                              [originally published in American Anthropologist, 50:31-44. 1948]
                              FRANK M. SNOWDEN, JR.
                              Howard University


                              The theatre also served to acquaint the
                              Greek with the Negro. It is not surprising that the
                              Negro became a familiar character on the Greek
                              stage, since he had long been known in Greek
                              mythology. The Negro appearing on certain
                              coins, according to several scholars, is Delphos,
                              the eponymous hero of Delphi......

                              The Negro, therefore, was comparatively
                              well known to the Greek in mythology. It is
                              reasonable to assume that plays which presented
                              these and similar myths helped, in many cases, to
                              familiarize the Greek with the Negroid type. The
                              Memnon or Aithiopes of Sophocles and possibly
                              the Memnon of Aeschylus had an Ethiopian
                              chorus.........
                              This author was not an anthropologist,Bill:
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_M._Snowden,_Jr.

                              I've shown to you the view of a famous anthropologist on that and here are some others too:

                              The famous Italian anthropologist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza.

                              He says that Greeks are closely related to Italians and then to Yugoslavians (probably he made his research before the dissolotion of Yugoslavia.)
                              L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza and his collaborators Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza have devoted fourteen years to one of the most compelling scientific projects of our time: the reconstruction of where human populations originated and the paths by which they spread throughout the world. In this volume, the culmination of their research, the authors explain their pathbreaking use of genetic data, which they integrate with insights from geography, ecology, archaeology, physical anthropology, and linguistics to create the first full-scale account of human evolution as it occurred across all continents. This interdisciplinary approach enables them to address a wide range of issues that continue to incite debate: the timing of the first appearance of our species, the problem of African origins and the significance of work recently done on mitochondrial DNA and the popular notion of an "African Eve," the controversy pertaining to the peopling of the Americas, and the reason for the presence of non-Indo-European languages--Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian--in Europe. The authors reconstruct the history of our evolution by focusing on genetic divergence among human groups. Using genetic information accumulated over the last fifty years, they examined over 110 different inherited traits, such as blood types, HLA factors, proteins, and DNA markers, in over eighteen hundred, primarily aboriginal, populations. By mapping the worldwide geographic distribution of the genes, the scientists are now able to chart migrations and, in exploring genetic distance, devise a clock by which to date evolutionary history: the longer two populations are separated, the greater their genetic difference should be. This volume highlights the authors' contributions to genetic geography, particularly their technique for making geographic maps of gene frequencies and their synthetic method of detecting ancient migrations, as for example the migration of Neolithic farmers from the Middle East toward Europe, West Asia, and North Africa. Beginning with an explanation of their major sources of data and concepts, the authors give an interdisciplinary account of human evolution at the world level. Chapters are then devoted to evolution on single continents and include analyses of genetic data and how these data relate to geographic, ecological, archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic information. Comprising a wide range of viewpoints, a vast store of new and recent information on genetics, and a generous supply of visual elements, including 522 geographic maps, this book is a unique source of facts and a catalyst for further debate and research.


                              And according to a study made by Macedonian anthropologists,Greeks ahve no relation to African populations but instead they are related with other Balkan peoples,Croats,Macedonians,Romanians,Turks and Sardinians and also to French,Italians and Spaniards:

                              High-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Macedonian population

                              1. A. Petlichkovski,
                              2. O. Efinska-Mladenovska,
                              3. D. Trajkov,
                              4. T. Arsov,
                              5. A. Strezova,
                              6. M. Spiroski

                              Article first published online: 21 JUL 2004
                              Tissue Antigens is an advanced immunogenetics journal and the official journal of the European Federation for Immunogenetics.


                              Abstract:  The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Macedonian population, so far. The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. The study included 158 unrelated healthy volunteers of Macedonian origin and nationality, having a Christian Orthodox religion. After the simultaneous amplification of exon-2 on both HLA-DRB1 alleles, DNA sequencing was used for genotype assignment. In the 158 samples analysed, all 316 alleles were typed and a total of 29 different DRB1 alleles were detected, with DRB1*1601 being the most frequent allele (14.9%), followed by DRB1*1104 (13.9%). A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another “European” cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree.

                              So you can't say Greeks get mixed in ancient time with black people,even if we accept Frank Snowden's view that there were Black people in ancient Greece.If there are certain instances of such mixing taking ever place,these were just trifles,not worthy at all to be mentioned as having left any significant genetic trace.It would be also too arbitrary and absurd to conclude that modern Greeks have African ancestry because few black people were once temporary residents of Greece.It's the same as if future historians would claim after 2.000 years that people of Bitola have African ancestry,because there were brought 20 negroe slaves in that city in 1859 by an Ottoman Pasha:
                              "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                              Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                              Comment

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