Greece, History, Truth

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    The point is that you were making a comparison between Greeks and Turks but are not willing to explain the basis of comparison. Why bother posting?
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Voltron
      Banned
      • Jan 2011
      • 1362

      No, its not that Risto. Its just that we have Turkish members on this forum and I believe their involvement would provide a more objective perspective regarding this subject.

      To answer your question though. The comparison between Greeks and Turks are Zero.
      We have almost an identical approach to how we view ourselves.
      Last edited by Voltron; 02-18-2011, 03:50 AM.

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        I am struggling with the Byzantine era being Greek?!
        When I studied history it was known as the Eastern Roman Empire and the imperial capital of the Ottoman Empire in Constantinople was where it was central .
        Have the Greeks also started a new propaganda machine in the last 25 years since I went to school to deny the Ottomans their history too?
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

        Comment

        • Ottoman
          Banned
          • Nov 2010
          • 203

          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          Just to be sure of what you are saying, can you please define how the Ottoman empire was Turkish. We will move forward logically thereafter.
          Its really simple, the Ottoman Empire was founded by Turks, the word Ottoman comes from Osmanli. Osman I or Osman bey was the founder of this empire and after his death the empire lasted for 700 years with the same elements and name.

          Comment

          • Ottoman
            Banned
            • Nov 2010
            • 203

            Originally posted by Onur View Post
            SOM is right.

            Also Greek wasn't the language of the Byzantine court, all the time. So it would be wrong to say only Greek was the language of the court in eastern Roman empire.




            We also know that Byzantine monarchy changed many times. There was Armenian, Macedonian monarchies beside Greek ones. So, even the monarchy and their language changed many times. How come we can define eastern Roman empire as "Greek" now?
            Onur most Turks always talk about 1453 to piss off Greeks, this would mean that a lot of Turks consider the Byzantine Empire as Greek otherwise why are these Turks talking about 1453 when facing a Greek?

            It surprises me that you state that the Byzantine Empire was not Greek, all Turks I know in my life always speak about the Greek Byzantines, its true that most Byzantine emperors were mixed but most Ottoman sultans were also mixed.
            Last edited by Ottoman; 02-18-2011, 07:03 AM.

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              Originally posted by Voltron View Post
              No, its not that Risto. Its just that we have Turkish members on this forum and I believe their involvement would provide a more objective perspective regarding this subject.

              To answer your question though. The comparison between Greeks and Turks are Zero.
              We have almost an identical approach to how we view ourselves.
              You do not make sense Voltron.
              I am not sure if you are doing this on purpose so as to remain cryptic.

              I pursued this discussion because you have suggested the Turks are the Ottomans in the same way the Greeks are the Byzantines. I thought we were going to have an interesting discussion about how the modern Turk is an amalgam of many Turkic and non-Turkic identities. Modern Greeks following in a similar fashion. But no, we are dealing with myths about Hellenism in perpetuity. How typical.

              Just to be sure, the Byzantines were as Greek as the Morean Slavic speaking and Albanian tribes. Stick that in your fustanella.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                Ottoman, Turks does that because modern Greeks adopted eastern Roman empire as theirs only. Also they still consider Istanbul as Greek city and their army says that Greeks shouldn't feel the rest `till the Palikarias put down the cross on top of Hagia Sophia and more nonsense like that. Thats why Turks does that.

                Also ottoman, there are many historians and scholars today who doesn't perceive eastern Roman empire as Greek. They claim that eastern Roman empire converted in to a Greek empire after renaissance, when western Europeans rediscovered ancient Greek culture. Also thats when the term "Byzantine" invented to separate Roman elements from it. So called Byzantines never called themselves as "Byzantines". Also we know that the noble heirs of them, the Phanariots never considered themselves as Greeks `till late 19th century. They were calling themselves as Romans back then.
                Last edited by Onur; 02-18-2011, 07:17 AM.

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                • Ottoman
                  Banned
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 203

                  Maybe you are right mate, the term Byzantine is very inaccurate then, its wrong to use it.

                  Comment

                  • Moon Tiki
                    Banned
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 34

                    Originally posted by Onur View Post
                    Also ottoman, there are many historians and scholars today who doesn't perceive eastern Roman empire as Greek. They claim that eastern Roman empire converted in to a Greek empire after renaissance, when western Europeans rediscovered ancient Greek culture.
                    Like which historians?
                    Since it's birth, the pre-dominant language of the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek. Even before that, every Roman had a Greek-Roman education. Still, that was not a Greek Empire but a Roman one. It took about 3 centuries until Greek becomes the official language and Roman Emperors have Greek as their native language. So, after that and given the divisions with the West we generally consider it a Greek empire. Hundreds of works have survived from 11 centuries of solid Greek literature.



                    Originally posted by Onur View Post
                    Also thats when the term "Byzantine" invented to separate Roman elements from it. So called Byzantines never called themselves as "Byzantines". Also we know that the noble heirs of them, the Phanariots never considered themselves as Greeks `till late 19th century. They were calling themselves as Romans back then.
                    Actually we still call ourselves Romans, though it's a little old-fashioned (reminds of 60s or 70s). The term "Phanariotes" usually refers to an upper class of Constantinoplites. You can consider the Patriarchs among them. Those who didn't fight for Greece or support the Revolution, would either be collaborators of Ottoman Empire, satisfied with their role, or couldn't express freely. Still, they were Greeks, since they spoke Greek.
                    Last edited by Moon Tiki; 02-19-2011, 11:01 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      Moon Tiki, use google before writing here and ask me who are these historians. It doesn't mean that such a discussion doesn't exist if you didn't hear before.

                      First result from google search. An article from an American historian named prof. Clifton R. Fox;

                      WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS A BYZANTINE?

                      ....
                      The phrase "Byzantine Empire" was coined and popularized by French scholars such as Montesquieu, an influential figure of eighteenth century intellectual life. Like other thinkers of his time, Montesquieu revered the ancient Greeks and Romans with immoderate enthusiasm as masters of politics and culture to be emulated.

                      The people who lived in the "Byzantine Empire" never knew nor used the word "Byzantine." They know themselves to be Romans, nothing more and absolutely nothing less. By transferring the Imperial capital from Rome on the Tiber to the New Rome on Bosphorus, dubbed Constantinople, the Emperor Constantine I had transferred the actual identity of Rome to the new location.

                      In the fourth century AD, as the Empire became Christianized, the term "Hellene" became redefined by common convention to include people who still worshipped the old gods and studied philosophy in hopes of resisting the new faith of Christianity. The Empire at Constantinople should not be called the "Byzantine Empire" at all. If it requires a special name, we might better name the Empire at Constantinople with the title of the "Romaion Empire" from the Greek "Basileia Romaion" [Empire of the Romaioi].

                      The names by which things are called are important in shaping our interpretation of reality. People are often surprised to discover that historical labels which define the past are inventions of later scholarship and ideology, not parts of the past itself. Men and women of the Middle Ages did not know that they lived in the Middle Ages: people who lived in Classical Athens or Renaissance Italy suffered the same disability. The people of the "Byzantine Empire" had no idea that they were Byzantine. They regarded themselves as the authentic continuators of the Roman world: the Romans living in Romania.
                      Read more here; http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.e...zantine.01.htm


                      So, as you see, philhellene western Europeans invented such terms and conceptions after early 18th century. Just like the term of "Hellenes". Actually "Hellenes" didn't get invented by them but it was something totally forgotten for 2000 years. It was usually linked with paganism, sin and being antichrist in medieval Byzantine era. Then after 2000 years, philhellenes bring back the term "Hellenes" for you, specifically for the people of new Greece. You have been indoctrinated in this concept and thats why you call Phanariots as traitors now. Actually they were regarded as the saviors and true representatives of eastern orthodoxy b4 hellenic propaganda started in western Europe. It was the truth. They saved orthodoxy from the wrath of western christians by the help of Ottoman empire.

                      So, you either condemn Phanariots or not, this doesn't change the fact that they were the one and only true representatives of the eastern Roman empire. I hope you will not claim that the Arvanites, Vlachs in Morea or Cretans represents Byzantines??!!! I hope not!

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        Originally posted by Moon Tiki View Post
                        The term "Phanariotes" usually refers to an upper class of Constantinoplites. You can consider the Patriarchs among them. Those who didn't fight for Greece or support the Revolution, would either be collaborators of Ottoman Empire, satisfied with their role, or couldn't express freely. Still, they were Greeks, since they spoke Greek.
                        Some of the biggest Phanariotes were or became Romanians.

                        Moon Tiki, are you committed to the idea the the administrative language was the sole determinant of ethnicity? I have never heard the Byzantine empire described as Greek by anyone other than Greeks.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Mikail
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1338

                          Originally posted by Ottoman View Post
                          It surprises me that you state that the Byzantine Empire was not Greek, all Turks I know in my life always speak about the Greek Byzantines, its true that most Byzantine emperors were mixed but most Ottoman sultans were also mixed.
                          It' quite simple Ottoman, the "Byzantine" (as it is classically known), Empire was not Greek. The Eastern Roman Empire, as it is more commonly known, was called "Eastern", for administrative purposes.

                          If you Greeks want to start claiming the Eastern Roman Empire as your own, then go the whole hog and claim the history of the entire Roman Empire, even Rome itself, as being Greek.

                          This is just how fucking ridiculous you clowns sound.

                          Total and utter fucking stupidity!
                          From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            Mikhail it's so ridiculous you got them greeks claiming to be turks & sultans etc.Or you got them greeks as turks but they can't speak turkish.Clowns is right they can't figure out who they are.
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • Ottoman
                              Banned
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 203

                              Mikail Im not Greek mate, you ever saw a Greek that called himself Ottoman?

                              Comment

                              • Mikail
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1338

                                Well what's with beating the Greek drum then?
                                From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

                                Comment

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