Greek Gen Sec of Education: Identity created in 19th Century

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Julie,

We are not so different in the way both our countries lost land. I remember wanting to spit on the minarets that were planted on Aghia Sophia. What can we do ?

You lost where, you idiot??? Greece is the most expansionist country in Balkans and probably the one of most in whole world for the last 200 years. You expanded your borders for 4 times since you created Greece. Crete first, then Macedonia, Aegean islands and Thrace. Then we kicked your ass in your 5th attempt for Anatolia.

What if i say, we lost Morea, Crete? I can prove mine since we ruled in there for 500+ years. OR Italians can prove it too cuz they ruled in there during centuries long Roman times. Already, they tried to get back what they lost b4 by invading Morea in WW-2. So, in that sense, it wasn't an invasion at all but it can be considered as getting back what they lost previously.

Go ahead, prove us your former possession and then your lost but do not try to tell me that you are the grandson of Sophocles cuz i told you b4, if you claim that you are the descendants of Homeros, then i would play same stupid game and claim that i am a Lydian or Hittitian and i am more indigenous here than you ancient Greeks, OK? Trust me, i can be more Lydian than you can ever be an ancient Greek!!!

Cant get along with minarets on Hagia Sophia? Then do not come here and dream about that by looking photoshop`ed Hagia Sophia postcards sold in Greece without minarets on the picture

I remember wanting to spit on the minarets that were planted on Aghia Sophia.

Im hoping it does explode. We need to clean the slate.

You live as what you deserve. I don't think you guys can have a "clean" state with all that slimy loogie all around you.

[Voltron]

Just got done writing a post and it asks for me to login. Then the post disappears into an oblivion. Christ is that annoying.

Anyway Onur, Im going to make it brief.

The "5th attempt" is identical to what happened to ethnic Macedonians.
Asia Minor catastrophe is what triggered the settlement in Macedonia (you got it backwards). Then you have the Treaty of Sevres and the failure of us to keep the Treaty. We risked going as far as Ankara and lost. We paid the price.

Regarding the "ruling" of us. You couldnt rule a boyscout club. Greeks and Armenians did the managerial jobs. You even employed Albanians as Pasha's.

Lastly regarding my connection to Ancient Greeks. Well, your not exactly Arp Arlsan either. Here, just in case you forgot how real Turks look like.

http://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&q=...w=1259&bih=585

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Voltron

The "5th attempt" is identical to what happened to ethnic Macedonians. Asia Minor catastrophe is what triggered the settlement in Macedonia (you got it backwards).

No, thats not true. Greek leaders, namely Venizelos was thinking about altering the population of Macedonia since day one in 1913 because at that time, Greeks was only ~10% in there and more than 1/3rd of Greece was Turks, rest was Macedonians, Vlachs and Albanians. Remember that most of your neo-hellenic Arvanites was still speaking Albanian at that time. Ofc that demographics of Greece wasn't quite like the hellenic state as Venizelos dreamed of.




"Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World",
by Margaret MacMillan



So, altering the population of Macedonia in favor of so-called Greeks was the primal aim but Venizelos postponed it at first because he was also aiming to invade Anatolia, making Istanbul as the capital of his mythical hellenic empire. But when your megali-idea has been destroyed by us, he immediately wanted to create new pseudo-hellenic Macedonia as soon as possible;


"Ionian vision: Greece in Asia Minor, 1919-1922",
by Michael Llewellyn Smith

Remember that we kicked the last Arvano-Greek soldier`s outta Izmir in 09.September.1922. Check the date of Venizelos`s declaration above, about transforming western Thrace and Macedonia as ethnologically Greek. It`s October 1922. Thats only the days after you lost the war but it`s about a year earlier than the Lausanne peace conference where the population exchange has been requested from us by the Greece&British for the first time.


I don't like to speak out from my ass unlike you Voltron. Your neo-hellenic propaganda doesn't do the trick around here.

Regarding the "ruling" of us. You couldnt rule a boyscout club. Greeks and Armenians did the managerial jobs. You even employed Albanians as Pasha's.

Thats how empires runs, otherwise Ottoman empire wouldn't possibly live for more than 600 years. But i don't expect from you to comprehend this since you neither have culture nor enough intelligence for that.

Lastly regarding my connection to Ancient Greeks. Well, your not exactly Arp Arlsan either. Here, just in case you forgot how real Turks look like.

Well, no one around here claims his own nation to solely consists of the direct descendants of their forefathers except you neo-hellenes. You guys are the one who claim that and thats our point here.

Thanks for your comical thoughts about today`s Kyrgyz people being the only so-called real Turks. That was good entertainment but remember, i told you that we are the Lydians and i am the direct descent of the last Lydian king and i carry his olive branch crown on my head!!! We are more indigenous here than you Greeks

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Risto, I just didnt see how Thalia Dragos is worth mentioning. Another liberal with an opinion that wants to be heard. Sorry.

Oh c'mon. It is courageous stuff coming from a person who lives and breathes in such a racist and xenophobic state as modern Greece. It is cultural suicide to make such admissions because modern Greece has numerous ethnic skeletons in its closet.

I predict that within the next 50 years we will see a new dynamic coming from Greece. That the modern identity is an amalgam of the neighbouring ethnicities it has swallowed up in the last 200 years and how it will seek a Balkan federation to capitalise on this "brotherhood". It will be a result of the end of the EU for Greece and interesting times ahead for the Balkans.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

I predict that within the next 50 years we will see a new dynamic coming from Greece. That the modern identity is an amalgam of the neighbouring ethnicities it has swallowed up in the last 200 years and how it will seek a Balkan federation to capitalise on this "brotherhood". It will be a result of the end of the EU for Greece and interesting times ahead for the Balkans.

Are you serious about that RTG?

Let alone leading a Balkan union, they cant even govern themselves. Last time, they supported Serbians for the massacre of Bosnians. Thats basically their sole ideological capacity. Also, did you ever think how come a medieval minded non-secular and an extremely ethnocentric state can lead for an union or create a common goal for all the Balkan people? To be able to achieve that, they have to completely change their mentality and create a new secular Greece where priests only deals with religion but not politics and i don't see this happening while majority of ordinary Greeks favors priests over their politicians or their own military.

So, without these changes, they can only create an imaginary orthodox brotherhood with Serbs to annihilate Bosnians, nothing else. Atm, they are destined to the EU. Without EU, you can expect revolutions in Greece or a self-destruction.

[julie]

And Macedonia for the macedonians !

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Onur

Are you serious about that RTG?

Let alone leading a Balkan union, they cant even govern themselves. Last time, they supported Serbians for the massacre of Bosnians. Thats basically their sole ideological capacity. Also, did you ever think how come a medieval minded non-secular and an extremely ethnocentric state can lead for an union or create a common goal for all the Balkan people? To be able to achieve that, they have to completely change their mentality and create a new secular Greece where priests only deals with religion but not politics and i don't see this happening while majority of ordinary Greeks favors priests over their politicians or their own military.

So, without these changes, they can only create an imaginary orthodox brotherhood with Serbs to annihilate Bosnians, nothing else. Atm, they are destined to the EU. Without EU, you can expect revolutions in Greece or a self-destruction.

I think I am serious Onur.
It is the only way Greece can move forward with any chance of success. I certainly did not say it would lead this union. Turkey may well be part of it too.

The section of yours highlighted in bold above is a pre-requisite and would fit in that time frame in my opinion. It is what I based my assumption on.

Either that or they simply remain xenophobic morons that represent an anachronism of contemporary Europe.

[Onur]

Actually, Turkey already proposed an economical Balkan union to all the Balkan states in 1930s but it didn't work out at that time due to upcoming WW-2. You can read about that here;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...61&postcount=8


But for today, you can take Turkey out of the equation cuz Turkey doesn't become a member of an union where she doesn't involve in it`s administration in a strong way and this would be something unacceptable for several Balkan states. The other way around would be unacceptable for Turkish people either.

Already, thats why Turkey will not and cant become a member of EU because due to it`s population, location and size, she has to involve in it`s administration but neither French nor Germans accepts that. They prayed and worked for Turkey`s dissolution from Europe for a millenia. So why they should hand on it`s administration and share the power by their own will? Thats something unthinkable for theirs and ours current mentality.

Either that or they simply remain xenophobic morons that represent an anachronism of contemporary Europe.

There are prerequisites for that change. For example, they need to change their national education system and raise a generation without hate for like 20-30 years. They have to prevent their church doing sermons to poison their people`s mind against their neighbors...

Thats something extremely difficult for them

[TrueMacedonian]

Bump. This was a fun topic to re-read.

[Onur]

I recently saw a Turkish article about Thalia Dragonas, university professor from Athens. Apparently, she was a member of the committee for rewriting Greek history books to clean up false information but as you know this project has been canceled because of the opposition of Greek church. I read that she also wrote a book in 1997, named “Τι ειν η πατρίδα μας” (What's our country?). In her book, she says;

• Greek identity has been created by British and Germans on top of myths and modern Greeks has no relation with the ancient ones.

• The systematic distortion of Greek history by the state. Implementation of the false ideas about the so-called "purity" of modern Greeks through the denial and refusal to recognize the Turkish influences on modern Greeks during Ottoman era. (p. 336)

• About Greek school books; presenting Turks as evil as opposed to the "expansionist national policy of Greece in the 19th and 20th century. For example, land claim is always mentioned as a part of ''national law'' for Greeks but unlawful aggression on all others (p. 332).
  
  "Greek culture, cultural homogeneity and national continuity from antiquity appears to remain trapped in the myths and contradictions of nationalism in the 19th century" (p. 16). And to be able to continue to this 19th century tradition and philosophy, Greek school history books has full of myths because this fraudulent identity needs myths to survive"

Ofc this is something we already know for sure but i think that was quite a shock for ordinary Greeks