Greek policeman arrested over immigrant muggings

[Nexus]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

[momce]

Originally Posted by EgejskaMakedonia

So by that logic Macedonia will get bigger and bigger? Unfortunately Macedonia is far more likely to get smaller before Greece does at this rate.

I never said that. Our friend there was imply greece will bounce back and get larger maybe annexing the rest of Macedonia. No I think greece is no longer useful to anyone so they will reorganise the place how they want.

[EricTheRed]

Originally Posted by momce

I never said that. Our friend there was imply greece will bounce back and get larger maybe annexing the rest of Macedonia. No I think greece is no longer useful to anyone so they will reorganise the place how they want.

Wow, hold on a sec. It wasnt me wishing for a country to dissappear in the first place. Check the posts carefully. Let me clarify:

What VMRO said (''It's been a long time coming, I hope the country breaks up'') can only be realized with war, right? A balkan war, to be precise. Hence, I had to remind him of histoy, and how it can possibly be repeated. Ofc i do not wish for a war to happen, or for Greece to get larger.

Moreover, isnt it a bit inhumane and cynical to refer to a country and its population as something to be distributed etc? The only difference between you and Greece in the past is that the latter actually managed to succeed. When we, the Greeks, take notice of such mentality, how can you possibly think we will support a peaceful solution....?

If you want Greece to dissappear, you leave it's citizens no choice: they have to maintain an aggressive stance. Why should I, for example, vote for a party that supports a solution? It's in our best interests to leave the name disputed for as long as possible, thus weakening Macedonia until Greece regain's its strength(it will happen eventually, thats how economy works, have no doubt about that)

Consider this: Macedonia is no match for Greece economically and militarily even now, that's why the negotiations Greece imposed upon Macedonia are still ongoing. Without foreign help, Macedonia is still not even a threat to Greece. And foreign help will not come, cause they already lent us lots and lots of billions-do you expect them to throw their investment away so easily??? Your only hope for Greece to break up is a Greco-Turkish war. In the quite unlikely event that it happens, the US 6th fleet based in Crete will stop all hostilities within hours(as it has done in the past). Because a Turkey even stronger than now is in nobody's interests, especially Israel's(owners of USA). We even put China into the game, as their main meditterenean harbor is now Piraeus. And dont expect the Bulgarians and Albanians to help Macedonia beat Greece, they will do exactly the opposite. My point is that if Macedonia cant hurt Greece even now, I see little chance in us breaking up. And even less chance for Macedonia to actually obtain Aegean Macedonia, even if Greece breaks up(probaby Turkey or EU international control).

Btw, do you actually think that Macedonia is more useful than Greece in any way possible? Besides housing a big american base, the Republic's geographical position is largely irrelevant. You should understand that while Greece is currently in it's weakest state sicne WW2, it still is far more relevant(hence more powerful) than Macedonia.

So, in your way of thinking, the accurate thing to state is that the Republic of Macedonia is not useful to anyone(in it's current geographical state, it never was relevant in the first place), hence it can be reorganized as needed.

Fortunately for us reasonable people, our times have changed. Lands and people are no longer redistributed as easily as in the past.. During the Repuplic's entire existence up to now, numbers wise Greece could annex everything up to Skopje in a matter of days. HOWEVER, such policies are no longer viable or accepted-a country just cant conquer lands any more, for a grand number of reason. Heck, even the Palestinians managed to survive as a nation, and they just got even more international recognition. What makes you believe that Greece will be a different case? Be realistic. You should also check this article, it elaborates even further on my way of thinking: http://shaneleavy.blogspot.gr/2012/0...de-greece.html

I personally hope for our peaceful times to continue. Lets all just prosper again and solve everything peacefully.

[momce]

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

Wow, hold on a sec. It wasnt me wishing for a country to dissappear in the first place. Check the posts carefully. Let me clarify:

What VMRO said (''It's been a long time coming, I hope the country breaks up'') can only be realized with war, right? A balkan war, to be precise. Hence, I had to remind him of histoy, and how it can possibly be repeated. Ofc i do not wish for a war to happen, or for Greece to get larger.

Moreover, isnt it a bit inhumane and cynical to refer to a country and its population as something to be distributed etc? The only difference between you and Greece in the past is that the latter actually managed to succeed. When we, the Greeks, take notice of such mentality, how can you possibly think we will support a peaceful solution....?

If you want Greece to dissappear, you leave it's citizens no choice: they have to maintain an aggressive stance. Why should I, for example, vote for a party that supports a solution? It's in our best interests to leave the name disputed for as long as possible, thus weakening Macedonia until Greece regain's its strength(it will happen eventually, thats how economy works, have no doubt about that)

Consider this: Macedonia is no match for Greece economically and militarily even now, that's why the negotiations Greece imposed upon Macedonia are still ongoing. Without foreign help, Macedonia is still not even a threat to Greece. And foreign help will not come, cause they already lent us lots and lots of billions-do you expect them to throw their investment away so easily??? Your only hope for Greece to break up is a Greco-Turkish war. In the quite unlikely event that it happens, the US 6th fleet based in Crete will stop all hostilities within hours(as it has done in the past). Because a Turkey even stronger than now is in nobody's interests, especially Israel's(owners of USA). We even put China into the game, as their main meditterenean harbor is now Piraeus. And dont expect the Bulgarians and Albanians to help Macedonia beat Greece, they will do exactly the opposite. My point is that if Macedonia cant hurt Greece even now, I see little chance in us breaking up. And even less chance for Macedonia to actually obtain Aegean Macedonia, even if Greece breaks up(probaby Turkey or EU international control).

Btw, do you actually think that Macedonia is more useful than Greece in any way possible? Besides housing a big american base, the Republic's geographical position is largely irrelevant. You should understand that while Greece is currently in it's weakest state sicne WW2, it still is far more relevant(hence more powerful) than Macedonia.

So, in your way of thinking, the accurate thing to state is that the Republic of Macedonia is not useful to anyone(in it's current geographical state, it never was relevant in the first place), hence it can be reorganized as needed.

Fortunately for us reasonable people, our times have changed. Lands and people are no longer redistributed as easily as in the past.. During the Repuplic's entire existence up to now, numbers wise Greece could annex everything up to Skopje in a matter of days. HOWEVER, such policies are no longer viable or accepted-a country just cant conquer lands any more, for a grand number of reason. Heck, even the Palestinians managed to survive as a nation, and they just got even more international recognition. What makes you believe that Greece will be a different case? Be realistic. You should also check this article, it elaborates even further on my way of thinking: http://shaneleavy.blogspot.gr/2012/0...de-greece.html

I personally hope for our peaceful times to continue. Lets all just prosper again and solve everything peacefully.

Nonsense. Greece can be dismantled over night by its patrons. NATO already gave most of Cyprus to Turkey a long time ago and allows Turkey to be all over the Aegean. In the IMIA crisis was a warning to Greece that Turkey can take the whole Aegean if the US wants it to. I never said reorganising borders will take place through war(there are many ways to destroy a country then just war) but that we are able to break greece stranglehold over Macedonia through the EU, NATO etc. And no economies dont always rebound, greece is pretty much irrelevant. If larger powers need bases they will just carve an area out for themselves like in Iraq etc. Its not a state-based world anymore.

[momce]

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

Wow, hold on a sec. It wasnt me wishing for a country to dissappear in the first place. Check the posts carefully. Let me clarify:

What VMRO said (''It's been a long time coming, I hope the country breaks up'') can only be realized with war, right? A balkan war, to be precise. Hence, I had to remind him of histoy, and how it can possibly be repeated. Ofc i do not wish for a war to happen, or for Greece to get larger.

Moreover, isnt it a bit inhumane and cynical to refer to a country and its population as something to be distributed etc? The only difference between you and Greece in the past is that the latter actually managed to succeed. When we, the Greeks, take notice of such mentality, how can you possibly think we will support a peaceful solution....?

If you want Greece to dissappear, you leave it's citizens no choice: they have to maintain an aggressive stance. Why should I, for example, vote for a party that supports a solution? It's in our best interests to leave the name disputed for as long as possible, thus weakening Macedonia until Greece regain's its strength(it will happen eventually, thats how economy works, have no doubt about that)

Consider this: Macedonia is no match for Greece economically and militarily even now, that's why the negotiations Greece imposed upon Macedonia are still ongoing. Without foreign help, Macedonia is still not even a threat to Greece. And foreign help will not come, cause they already lent us lots and lots of billions-do you expect them to throw their investment away so easily??? Your only hope for Greece to break up is a Greco-Turkish war. In the quite unlikely event that it happens, the US 6th fleet based in Crete will stop all hostilities within hours(as it has done in the past). Because a Turkey even stronger than now is in nobody's interests, especially Israel's(owners of USA). We even put China into the game, as their main meditterenean harbor is now Piraeus. And dont expect the Bulgarians and Albanians to help Macedonia beat Greece, they will do exactly the opposite. My point is that if Macedonia cant hurt Greece even now, I see little chance in us breaking up. And even less chance for Macedonia to actually obtain Aegean Macedonia, even if Greece breaks up(probaby Turkey or EU international control).

Btw, do you actually think that Macedonia is more useful than Greece in any way possible? Besides housing a big american base, the Republic's geographical position is largely irrelevant. You should understand that while Greece is currently in it's weakest state sicne WW2, it still is far more relevant(hence more powerful) than Macedonia.

So, in your way of thinking, the accurate thing to state is that the Republic of Macedonia is not useful to anyone(in it's current geographical state, it never was relevant in the first place), hence it can be reorganized as needed.

Fortunately for us reasonable people, our times have changed. Lands and people are no longer redistributed as easily as in the past.. During the Repuplic's entire existence up to now, numbers wise Greece could annex everything up to Skopje in a matter of days. HOWEVER, such policies are no longer viable or accepted-a country just cant conquer lands any more, for a grand number of reason. Heck, even the Palestinians managed to survive as a nation, and they just got even more international recognition. What makes you believe that Greece will be a different case? Be realistic. You should also check this article, it elaborates even further on my way of thinking: http://shaneleavy.blogspot.gr/2012/0...de-greece.html

I personally hope for our peaceful times to continue. Lets all just prosper again and solve everything peacefully.

No, greece should stick to its borders and not bother other people-i.e way down south.

[EricTheRed]

You have a really funny perception of reality. First of all, I've been reading that the official Greek-Cyprus Republic is about to drill for gas, together with Israel, using a US company. I've also read about the Noble Dina exercise, between US, Israel and Greece, against a supposed Turkish attack on Cypriot installations. But in your fantasy realm, Turkey already owns Cyprus!

About the Imia crisis, care to explain why the US didnt just give Turkey all the Aegean at that point? What reason do they have to threaten the far weaker Greece? Or is the opposite totally unthinkable? Let me tell you my version-the Turks would have probably won that conflict. But the US simply stopped them immediately, preserving the status quo. Compare the 2 versions and honestly consider which is the one closest to reality, keeping in mind Turkey's increasing ties with the Muslim world and aggression towards Israel.

Btw, what evidence do you have that NATO is planning to dismantle Greece? As I recall, at the latest Chicago summit even the US dropped the entire ''Macedonia joins NATO'' issue, despite the Hague decision(many thx to Macedonia's goverment for going to court to give even more credibility to Greece's diplomatic masterpiece, the Interim Accord). Greece's standing in NATO is actually better now in 2008, since no1 is pressuring us except Turkey(we're used to that though), while Macedonia can not even count on US pressure at this point.

I have to add that while in Greece's case only big countries like US, Germany etc are able to dismantle it, in Macedonia's case, Albania and Bulgaria can do the same job. Macedonia and Greece are on a totally different level, even now. ROM should manage to fend off the Albanians (second weakest country in balkans, after Macedonia) first, and then maybe have a wet dream about touching Greece.

Why did the US offer Greece 400+ M1 MBTs for free, if they wanted to give the entire country to Turkey? Maybe they wanted to provide the Turks with a bigger challenge?

I repeat again: lets live peacefully. Just forget about reclaiming Aegean Macedonia for the time being, cause it's surely going to backfire and bring misery to everyone, especially the Macedonians. Maintaining the current status quo is the best Macedonia can do at his point.

[momce]

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

You have a really funny perception of reality. First of all, I've been reading that the official Greek-Cyprus Republic is about to drill for gas, together with Israel, using a US company. I've also read about the Noble Dina exercise, between US, Israel and Greece, against a supposed Turkish attack on Cypriot installations. But in your fantasy realm, Turkey already owns Cyprus!

About the Imia crisis, care to explain why the US didnt just give Turkey all the Aegean at that point? What reason do they have to threaten the far weaker Greece? Or is the opposite totally unthinkable? Let me tell you my version-the Turks would have probably won that conflict. But the US simply stopped them immediately, preserving the status quo. Compare the 2 versions and honestly consider which is the one closest to reality, keeping in mind Turkey's increasing ties with the Muslim world and aggression towards Israel.

Btw, what evidence do you have that NATO is planning to dismantle Greece? As I recall, at the latest Chicago summit even the US dropped the entire ''Macedonia joins NATO'' issue, despite the Hague decision(many thx to Macedonia's goverment for going to court to give even more credibility to Greece's diplomatic masterpiece, the Interim Accord). Greece's standing in NATO is actually better now in 2008, since no1 is pressuring us except Turkey(we're used to that though), while Macedonia can not even count on US pressure at this point.

I have to add that while in Greece's case only big countries like US, Germany etc are able to dismantle it, in Macedonia's case, Albania and Bulgaria can do the same job. Macedonia and Greece are on a totally different level, even now. ROM should manage to fend off the Albanians (second weakest country in balkans, after Macedonia) first, and then maybe have a wet dream about touching Greece.

Why did the US offer Greece 400+ M1 MBTs for free, if they wanted to give the entire country to Turkey? Maybe they wanted to provide the Turks with a bigger challenge?

I repeat again: lets live peacefully. Just forget about reclaiming Aegean Macedonia for the time being, cause it's surely going to backfire and bring misery to everyone, especially the Macedonians. Maintaining the current status quo is the best Macedonia can do at his point.

Yes, Turkey can capture the rest of Cyprus in a few hours. It has superiority over greece in the aegean and thrace on all fronts actually. Bulgaria and Albania cant do anything as they dont run their own affairs. Same for greece. Unless they all go rogue which they are too weak to do and they will get bitch slapped. I wouldnt take the Israeli thing too seriously as they tend play games with almost everyone. I never said war is an option just to loosen strangleholds. Now we have political party in greece and cultural events etc so things can take off from there hopefully for our rights and territories(not just us but also chams and thracian turks, pomaks etc). Honestly, greece isnt even on anyones radar screen in these organisations because everything is so low quality. They are more like a pain in the ass. Dont think breaking up the country isnt an option if they resist the TROIKA either.

[momce]

US will sell anything to anyone for money. Doesnt mean they are your friend. Those MBTs are all used tanks from Iraq etc whos quality is probably dubious. Plus the US will always side with Turkey. Tell me why did greece build a huge wall and ditch on its border with turkey? Probably because they know their position is hopeless there. Turkey has plans to build naval facilities in Albania also. Right now greece is being raped by globalisation cannot really defend herself. Apparently they cant even feed their soldier and fill their stuff with gas(most of which was stolen by their politician crooks) etc. So no greece in bad shape, really bad shape

i would add "greece" was divided in two for a while during WWI almost had a civil war(see the Macedonian Front) and if not for cold war contingencies would have probably lost Eiprus, Macedonia and Thrace after WWII(because no one wanted greek administration except for the grecophones and anatolians--see the Vlachs had their own state in Pindus during WWII, also the Macedonian Liberation War was going on)...and thats all because greece is a fake country

[momce]

[quote=momce;137393]US will sell anything to anyone for money. Doesnt mean they are your friend. Those MBTs are all used tanks from Iraq etc whos quality is probably dubious. Plus the US will always side with Turkey. Tell me why did greece build a huge wall and ditch on its border with turkey? Probably because they know their position is hopeless there. Turkey has plans to build naval facilities in Albania also. Right now greece is being raped by globalisation cannot really defend herself. Apparently they cant even feed their soldier and fill their stuff with gas(most of which was stolen by their politician crooks) etc. So no greece in bad shape, really bad shape...if a few KLAs were to pop up in greece greece doesnt have the resources or training to deal with that

i would add "greece" was divided in two for a while during WWI almost had a civil war(see the Macedonian Front) and if not for cold war contingencies would have probably lost Eiprus, Macedonia and Thrace after WWII(because no one wanted greek administration except for the grecophones and anatolians--see the Vlachs had their own state in Pindus during WWII, also the Macedonian Liberation War was going on)...and thats all because greece is a fake country

[EricTheRed]

First of all, the border fence was planned in order to tackle illegal immigration, since almost 90% of illegal immigrants towards European countries pass through our borders with Turkey(and ofc the latter does everything possible to keep them coming). It was never intended for defense vs Turkey, its not the 19th century any more, a ditch cant stop an invading army, thats primary school material...

Who told you that they cant feed their soldiers? I have 3 good friends doing their service right now, and there is no problem with food. The oil used by high value military assets comes from the few refineries in Greece(and probably OKTA, since its a greek refinery after all), it's not imported, so Greek jets still fly alright(buddy currently serving in air force told me). Real life evidence vs rumors=reality wins.

Greece was divided between 2 Greek governments, same happened with lots of other countries at some point(e.g. US, Spain, Germany). However, the greek state was never demolished since 1830. Okey, the Macedonia Liberation Front existed during WW2, I wont deny that. However, the Vlachs did certainly not have a state of their own. They were already well incorporated into the greek population. About the muslim albanians in Epirus, they did try to grab it collaborating with the Italians., but, before Germany's attack, the Greek army in Albania defeated the Italians, and took care of the seperatist muslims...

As far as I know, except for the destruction in Cyprus(the greek junta was the initial aggressor, most greeks recognize that), the Americans havent handed any Greek lands to Turkey. There were and still are opportunities for them to destroy Greece(and almost every other minor country in the world, mind you), but I assure you that, in the unlikely event that they do, Macedonia wont get any spoils.

Besides fantasizing, think, the US didnt even break up Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Both of them were Muslim dictatorships, and even then they feared public opinion and global reactions. I really cant find any logical explanation for what makes you believe they will destroy Greece specifically... What saved Macedonia from Greece in the first place, will save Greece from Turkey. (Btw the US did support Greece directly in the attempt to annex Smyrna etc, vs Turkey. So much for''the US will always side with Turkey.)

I have to agree that Greece is currently in a very bad shape, but be realistic... Greece has seen worse times at the past, but the country went through these far worse storms territorially unscathed(excluding the loss of Eastern Thrace in 1922, both northern Cyprus and Asia minor lands were not officially greek territory). I dont see any evidence that Turkey is willing to move against the Republic of Cyprus, an EU member. Dont underestimate the public reaction a war on EU members will produce.

Anyways, I see this discussion is getting us nowhere. We agree that we disagree. Lets just see what will happen in the future.