Greek policeman arrested over immigrant muggings

[Stojacanec]

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

how can you possibly think we will support a peaceful solution....?


I personally hope for our peaceful times to continue. Lets all just prosper again and solve everything peacefully.

Right etr, you want everyone to prosper however you admit that grease created the dillusional name dispute in the hope to weaken Macedonia.

then you admit that grease doesn't want a solution because it is a more powerful state.

you admit the avg grk doesn't want a solution

then you contradict yourself by saying you want a peaceful solution.

Well, as for the latter you can't be a true modern grk.

as for for former, no wander your collective country is all over the place with the highest debt to gdp ratio in the world!

[momce]

Independant Macedonia would be better for everyone even greekos LOL

[momce]

the greece is a discredited country...no one believes anything it says or its positions...remember Bush was very displeased with greece veto on Macedonia and various of its policies, energies etc, aegean...considering the state it in now greece should be rolling up in a ball in the corner of the room lol...so slowly things will change on various fronts...up to now greece had won the propaganda war but slowly people are realising huge areas of greece do not belong to it...

[EricTheRed]

Originally Posted by Stojacanec

Right etr, you want everyone to prosper however you admit that grease created the dillusional name dispute in the hope to weaken Macedonia.

then you admit that grease doesn't want a solution because it is a more powerful state.

you admit the avg grk doesn't want a solution

Ofc the average greek wouldnt want the ''solution'' many here seek, which is actually the destruction of Greece. That's not a solution, its a rather evil wet dream.

Originally Posted by Stojacanec

then you contradict yourself by saying you want a peaceful solution.

No contradiction there, I want a solution, not the destruction of my country. Ofc I wont be peaceful if any attempts are made to break up my country, as many of you hope.

Originally Posted by Stojacanec

Well, as for the latter you can't be a true modern grk.

This statement is so vague I dont know where to begin from...
1. What is a ''true'' modern greek?
2. How can you discern one without knowing him/her IRL?
3. As I understand, most here claim that there are no greeks left nowadays. Modern=today. So, how can one be a ''true'' modern greek, if he/she isnt greek in the first place?
4. How do you know what I am? I only said I am greek, period.

Originally Posted by Stojacanec

as for for former, no wander your collective country is all over the place with the highest debt to gdp ratio in the world!

Actually, avoid using bold without researching whatever you want to emphasize on. You see, Japan is the country with the highest debt to gdp ration in the world. And if we consider foreign owned debt, check these links out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._external_debt , http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959/The_...Debtor_Nations

While Greece's ratio is indeed one of the worst, it is not the worst. And btw, Greece is still considered a rather large economy compared to her size:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29

Even after losing more than 25% of it's GDP. Greece's economic output is now close to countries like Denmark and UAE. While Macedonia can me compared with Mali and New Caledonia.

Keeping that in mind, Greece's 3 Macedonia regions alone(Central, Western, Eastern) have a combined GDP of $64,406 billion(2009 statistics, should be reduced to something like 50 billion.
Per capita, even in this maelstrom of crisis, these regions' most hard hit cities still exceed RoM's average income, even with a small margin
(Pella-the most hard hit city, has an average per capita income of 12.419 dollars, and the average stands at around 14.000 dollars).

Lets compare these statistics to the Republic: Macedonia currently has a total GDP of $10.198 billion, and a per capita income of $4,935(nominal, as the data I found on Greece are nominal as well).

As you see, greek Macedonia(bored of typing regions etc) has 5 times more total GDP and per capita than the Republic of Macedonia, even after 4 years of recession(in 2009, total GDP was $64,406 billion as I wrote before, and per capita was $25,075).

Just for the sake of comparison, a country that has 5 times the GDP of Greece is Russia. Do you see Greece annexing Russia any time soon???
THATS how big the difference between Macedonia and greek Macedonia territories is.
Btw, I have read many things about how Turkey can ''buy'' Greece and how completely it dominates the latter economically. Turkey's economy is actually 2,5 times the economy of greece.Consider however that this ''all over the place country''(i have to agree....) has an economy 16 times larger than Macedonia's. Its like comparing the greek economy to Germany(11 times the greek economy actually, not 16).

You will ask, why compare? If Greece could never ever touch Turkey, who has an economy 2 times larger, how can Macedonia even dream of touching Greece, with a 16 times larger economy?How could Macedonia possibly annex a territory that even in times of crises has an economy 5 times larger? The Macedonians living in Greece have a far better standard of living than Macedonians in RoM even now. There would be a total mess. Without mentioning the 2-2,5 million of Greeks currently living in these regions(I think there are currently 250.000-300.000 max Macedonians remaining in Greece[very optimistic calculation]).

The whole point is: Instead of bashing Greece, check out RoM's economy and make it comparable to greek Macedonia at least. If you check this table:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29
you will realize that Greece has a rather large economy in the global scale, a country that you will hear in the news about(unfortunately its bad publicity right now...). Cant say the same for Macedonia though, whose name is only heard in the context of the naming dispute. You should realize that if countries like Libya and Syria(Muslim, Africa/MidEast, Civil war, much smaller economies) didnt break up, then Greece(EU, NATO, OSCE, Eurozone, far larger economy, NO civil war, Christian) is politically secure.
As for me, while having said all this, I repeat that I sympathize with your cause to have the Macedonians in Greece protected and recognized. I also agree that Macedonia should be called Macedonia.
However, I noticed that many here really seem to underestimate Greece a lot, something which may deter a peaceful resolution if the same view is shared by Macedonian voters in the Republic. So, I had to clarify some things.

[makedonche]

EricTheRed
I too want a solution to these issues you mention and don't wish any harm to any people. I think the permanent solution would be easier to achieve if both countries were on a level playing field so they can both start from scratch and have new beginnings! To that end what I suggest is that both countries go to their creditors and pay their debts off so they can free themselves from the enforced financial enslavement that is currently restraining them. I estimate Republic of Macedonia to be able to achieve this in 3 years based on the figures you have provided, how long before Greece is in the same position ( based on the figures you have provided) ?

[EricTheRed]

To answer your question,in theory it would take many more years than Macedonia. But do you seriously think Macedonia can be free of debt in 3 years?? To my knowledge, not even China or Germany(major export economies) can ever be completely free of debt. How could Macedonia or Greece ever do that? Your point was that Greece has rly lots of debt, something I dont deny, since without it we wouldnt be in this place.

For a peaceful solution to be achieved, first of all the goals should be determined. I had made a seperate thread asking specifically about Aegean Macedonia, where I saw reasonable answers. But roaming the forum I took notice that those here who dream of annexations etc may as well be more than the reasonable fellows. Many are blinded by hatred and bad-will towards Greece. While it may be justifiable, it wont get us anywhere.

When I read posts about how easily a country can supposedly disappear, coming from people who really wish for it to happen, without seeing the broader picture, I have to post a reasonable answer to their wet dreams.

Remember: in this certain thread, it was Macedonians who wished for Greece to disappear, and NOT vice versa.

So I propose:the Macedonians should first of all decide whether they want Greece to be destroyed or reasoned with, and then the Greeks will reply accordingly. Thats the first basis of a solution in any dispute, understanding each side's target.

[momce]

oh so ridiculous...based on the premise greece has any right over Macedonia whatsoever

[momce]

no we want compensation for ethnocide, cultural genocide and decades of psychological abuse from greek authorities, church and we want greek administration off our land

[Peshoshnitsa Lerin]

couldn’t have said it better myself momce! makedonija za makedoncite!

[momce]

have to say the truth we dont want to have anything to do with greece