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Old 11-19-2017, 06:35 PM   #291
Pelagonija
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Originally Posted by Starling View Post
Can churches not just flip off all the other churches and be independent? Bogomilism was the movement that involved people being able to practice their religion without having to be validated by institutions right? Let's bring that back.
This is the problem with the youth living in fantasy equal rights land... just make up the rules as you go, no structure, logic, accountability or values.. it's all about me, I can do what I like without consequences, all because I was taught that since day one..

The truth is there are always rules, unfortunate ones too. validation and rules in some cases are a matter of survival..

Anyway the destruction of our nation has accelerated at an alarming pace..

I will keep believing(dreaming) that Macedonia is independent as it is my right to do so and I view myself as an equal.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:53 PM   #292
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So what is next for Macedonia?
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:12 PM   #293
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So what is next for Macedonia?
Albania.



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Old 11-20-2017, 09:58 AM   #294
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Macedonia's Lonely Church Seeks Bulgarian 'Parent'

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...ing-11-20-2017
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:16 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Pelagonija View Post
This is the problem with the youth living in fantasy equal rights land... just make up the rules as you go, no structure, logic, accountability or values.. it's all about me, I can do what I like without consequences, all because I was taught that since day one..

The truth is there are always rules, unfortunate ones too. validation and rules in some cases are a matter of survival..

Anyway the destruction of our nation has accelerated at an alarming pace..

I will keep believing(dreaming) that Macedonia is independent as it is my right to do so and I view myself as an equal.
No need to be patronizing. I, like anyone who's had time to read even just a few threads on this forum, am perfectly aware that the Macedonian government is a sellout and that people are turning a blind eye to blatant human rights violations and double standards. My knowledge of church hierarchy is limited so I'm not sure if the Macedonian church is capitulating to obstructions imposed by other institutions or selling out just because it can. Being able to explain how churches work and exactly why this whole thing is unnecessary and probably unconstitutional would also help explain the problem to people who don't understand what's going on. It's like how explaining to people that the very existence of name 'debate' is a human rights violation will get their attention better than just saying it's offensive.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:29 PM   #296
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My knowledge of church hierarchy is limited so I'm not sure if the Macedonian church is capitulating to obstructions imposed by other institutions or selling out just because it can.
It is bit of both, corruption and capitulation. I say that, partly, because I refuse to believe that the MOC did not realize the potential fallout from such a move. Do they actually think that recognizing the BOC as a mother church would get MOC recognition from other churches? It certainly will not. Instead, it will infuriate the SOC and cause wider disturbances in the Orthodox Community. At the same time, our identity is sacrificed by associating us with the BOC.

Any time Macedonia faces an assault from one neighbor, it then turns to another neighbor to help solve the problem instead of turning inward.

The MOC Archbishop Stefan and other bishops have been successfully bribed before. It's just an exploding and never-ending trend within Macedonia.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:54 PM   #297
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Don't worry, everyone. The MOC has assured us that we won't become Bulgarians and that calling the BOC "mother church" is just a "honorary expression".

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This request by the MOC, in opposition media, is interpreted as "the continuation of the bad Treaty of good neighborly relations with Bulgaria, which the Macedonians will make Bulgarians, and now the Church will make it Bulgarian."

Sources from The Holy Synod of the MOC vigorously rejects such claims.

"No one becomes a Bulgarian if the BOC as a mother-church recognizes the autocephaly of the MOC. That's what citizens need to know. Church-mother is an honorary expression, not a sign of someone's ecclesiastical authority over anyone. The recognition of the autocephaly of a mother-church can be described by 'second'. From the moment the church-mother recognizes another church, they become sisterly. She remains a mother-church in the relationship with others, until Constantinople has issued a volume for autocephaly. Every church, if it wants, can be a mother-church - both Russian and Albanian ... It is a fact that we have had the biggest history of cooperation so far with the Bulgarian one. Support is a respect for respect and love, knowing that you've come across all that when you needed the most, "sources from the Synod said.

With this, it is certain that "this thing" has not been recognized in the SOC so far. Negotiations between the MOC and the SPC have been suspended for several years and so far there has been no signal that ecclesiastical Belgrade intends to activate it at all. There were no other goodwill signals in sight. In August, the Serbian Archbishop Irinej did not give permission for the celebration of ASNOM in the monastery "St. Prohor Pcinjski ", and the various currents in the Synod of the SOC do not give hope that there will in the near future be created unity and will to continue the talks with the MOC, even as" alibi for constructiveness "and let alone productivity.

Internationalization of the dispute

According to church authorities, the desire of the SOC to hold this issue as its "internal", with the possible perception of the autocephaly of the MOC by the BOC - will directly internationalize and receive international attention. Especially since in 1959 the SOC, in the decision of its bishop's council, notes that the SPC's regulations on the dioceses and hierarchs of the territory of Macedonia (Skopski, Ohrid-Bitola and Zletovsko-Strumica) have ceased to be valid, which have become isolated in an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church. But, "it is changing" after the MOC proclaimed autocephaly in 1967. Will the issue get out of the long-standing blockade in the SOC and finally be internationalized? If the BOC recognizes the autocephaly of the MOC, according to our interlocutors, it is more than safe. But they also warn of other aspects.

Cane Mojanovski, former president of the Commission for Relations between Religious Communities in the request of the MOC, sees an attempt by the church hierarchy to finally stop entering the Orthodox ecumenical community. Is not sure if it will mean downloading a problem or opening up several new ones.

"However, I think that this effort of the MOC should be observed with attention and without much political arbitrage. The attempt of this church hierarchy is to find a church solution for its inclusion in the world of Orthodox churches. This will inevitably cause debates in Orthodox churches, especially in the Balkans, especially in those churches that in the past had dioceses in Macedonia. And it can cause further organization of other Orthodox churches in Macedonia.
http://www.libertas.mk/ne-stanuvame-...-majka-tsrkva/
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:39 PM   #298
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Don't worry, everyone. The MOC has assured us that we won't become Bulgarians and that calling the BOC "mother church" is just a "honorary expression".



http://www.libertas.mk/ne-stanuvame-...-majka-tsrkva/
Are these assurances similar to the assurances Ivanov and Zaev signed that he will respect Macedonia's unity, sovereignty, territorial integrity, independence.

If so all good then...
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:47 PM   #299
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Don't think the BOC will recognise the MOC, however tempting it is. It will create vast tensions between the BOC and the Russian, Serbian and Greek orthodox churches.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:37 PM   #300
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There's a good chance the BOC will say no.

This must've not been too difficult for the MOC to reason through if the sole intent was to get complete independence for the MOC.

BOC's answer will be either yes or no.

If BOC says yes and MOC formalizes it with BOC, it is unlikely the other churches will acknowledge MOC and we will be stuck under the BOC, no different than we are stuck under the SOC right now. One big difference, however, is we will have chosen to become subservient to another church.

If BOC says no, then MOC will appear to be the fool, and more leverage will be given to the SOC in future negotiations.

If BOC says yes but MOC does not formalize an agreement with them just yet, that potentially will cause the SOC to make a move. Being that they may not want to lose the MOC to influence of the BOC, the SOC may be more willing to compromise. BUT, when the BOC figures that the MOC is playing them, the BOC will withdraw their yes before the SOC and MOC can come to an understanding and MOC will have lost.
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