Albanians in Greece

[Ottoman]

Ali Pasha sounds very Albanian indeed lol.

[Voltron]

He was a Turko-Alvano ^ They would sell their own mothers to get ahead in the Ottoman Empire.

[Ottoman]

For me he is just Ottoman just like everybody else in the Ottoman Empire.

[Onur]

Here we go...

It looks like the forum`s famous duo detected new thread for derailing it.

OK, another good thread falls into abyss.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Next time Epirot. Youll have your answer.

I am all ears, mate!

Just be thankful to the Turks that settled you here. If it wasnt for them you would still be in the Caucaus mountains.

You have to be kidding because Caucasian hypothesis has been dismantled a long time ago. This is why no modern historian take into consideration. It was a deluded young Greek (Nikolaos Nicocles) who invented for the first time this ludicrous hypothesis. Later on, it was Fallmerayer himself in his work who canceled such absurdity. I'm really sorry for you who waste your precious time on digging old garbage...


Albanian identities: myth and history
By Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer

Did you noticed that the work of Nicocles was transparently motivated by politics?

Your only link to antiquity in the Balkans is through us.

Here I lost you. Can you elaborate better your point...thnx

P.S: I thought most of modern Greek historians maintained the Illyrian theory on the Albanian ethnogenesis.

[Daskalot]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Surely your joking Daskale. Look around you. Half the Avatars here are of ppl that are dead 2000 + yrs ago not to mention symbols of antiquity. Heck, look at your own, and Im the one with the fixation ?

Im just enlightning our friend Pyrros who is spreading propaganda against Greeks and Arvanties. I would love for him to try to sell this crap to Arvanites.

I am using our chosen flag as my avatar, it is from 1992, is that ancient to you?
Why do you call Epirot by the name Pyrros?

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Daskalot

I am using our chosen flag as my avatar, it is from 1992, is that ancient to you?
Why do you call Epirot by the name Pyrros?

His Avatar.

@Epirot.

Ive been through this a million times but still not enough I guess. I will answer your points you mentioned when I have some spare time.

Regarding the antiquity comments, Il leave that for another thread.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Voltron

He was a Turko-Alvano ^ They would sell their own mothers to get ahead in the Ottoman Empire.

You got no clue who really was Ali Pasha of Janina. Because if you knew only some basic things about him, you wouldn't gibberish in this way.

You owe your independence also to his struggles against Ottoman central authorities. When Sultan engaged a lot of his armies against Ali Pasha insurgency, Orthodox Arvanites saw a great opportunity to start their uprising. If Sultan's army marched against the weak revolts of Arvanites at the first stage of war, the flow of events would be fairly different. So show some respect to historical figures!

I suggest to you to read the following summary written by John Shea:

The Greek independence movement. just as interesting as the ethnic diversity of Greece is the idea that the new peoples in the southern Balkan peninsula learned Greek, became good Roman citizens, and identified a community of interest with other peoples living in their land. Writing nearly one hundred and fifty years ago, just a few years after the success of the Greek revolution, George Finlay noted that the local energies and local patriotism of all the Christian municipalities in the Ottoman empire were able to readily unite in opposition to "Othoman oppressions" whenever some kind of communication or administrative structure to centralize their efforts could be created. In these local institutions, Finlay suggested, a foundation was laid for a union of all the Christian Orthodox races in European Turkey. This comment was made, of course, a generation before Bulgaria achieved its autonomy from the Turks, and long before a Macedonian state became possible. Greece was then still a very small state at the bottom of the Balkan peninsula. Finlay recognized " the vigorous Albanians of Hydra, the warlike Albanians of Suli, the persevering Bulgarians of Macedonia, and the laborious Vallachians on the banks of the Aspropotamos" who embarked together on a struggle for Greek independence, "as heartily as the posterity of the ancient inhabitants of the soil of Hellas. Nicholas Hammond tells us that in the Greek War of Independence the Albanians, above all, drove the Turks out.

The heroism and determination of the Greek revolutionaries alone probably would not have been enough to overcome the Turks and their allies. The armed intervention of the European powers made a difference at crucial times. With the beginning of the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Turkish sultan gave Mohammed Ali (an Albanian general of the Turkish forces in Egypt who had seized power in 1808) the provincial governorships of Crete and the Peloponnese with a commission to exterminate the Greek rebels. The Greek fleet kept them out till 1825, when the fleet mutinied over a lack of pay. A battle at Missolonghi, where Greek patriots were being besieged by the Turks, was swayed in Turkish favor by the arrival of the Egyptians. The heroic defense and the appearance of an Egyptian threat moved the governments of Europe to support the Greek cause. In 1827 squadrons of British, French and Russian navies destroyed the Turkish and Egyptian fleets at Navarin, and Greek independence was made certain.

According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the nineteenth-century "Greeks," who had so recently won their independence from the Turks, not only did not call themselves Hellenes (they learned this label later from the intellectual nationalists); they did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Albanian, Slavonic, or Vlach dialects." He held that their culture was similarly remote from the culture of the ancient Greeks. Their "customs and habits might seem to bear as much if not more relation to those of the other peoples of the Balkans and indeed of Anatolian as they did to what were fondly imagined to be those of Pericline Athens."

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Epirot

You got no clue who really was Ali Pasha of Janina. Because if you knew only some basic things about him, you wouldn't gibberish in this way.

You owe your independence also to his struggles against Ottoman central authorities. When Sultan engaged a lot of his armies against Ali Pasha insurgency, Orthodox Arvanites saw a great opportunity to start their uprising. If Sultan's army marched against the weak revolts of Arvanites at the first stage of war, the flow of events would be fairly different. So show some respect to historical figures!

I suggest to you to read the following summary written by John Shea:

Epirot, I have seen John Shea before. Bulgarians of Macedonia, I see you looking to expand you fan base here. What is it with underlining pages of books these days. Dont you realize for every page you post from a book someone else can go and find another that completely says a different thing ?

Ok, back on topic. I had never denied nor does any Greek I know discount the role in which Arvanites have played in our war of independence. This is a non-issue. Same can be said about Vlachs.

What my problem is, is this flawed attempt to link Arvantes to their Muslim Brothers as some kind of united Albanian ethnos which quite frankly did not exist at the time. This form of Albaniasm is a recent event, something cultivated in Hoxha's time of communism. Arvanties saw something in Greeks that led them to die in the battle field. If they felt so out of place, I hardly think anyone would put themself in that postion. Common sense ppl. Thats all it takes.

[Onur]

Epirot, don't bite his bait, he is just trying to lure you.

We all know that it was the so-called Greeks who always gave their sisters on a plate to the Ottoman rulers for gaining a bit more authority over the Balkans, from their patriarchy to a simple peasant in Morea.