Albanians in Greece

[Struja]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Today, their assimilation is pretty much complete, and their language will die out soon. I have never heard nor read about a 'forced' assimilation either. As there was no Albanian nationality to speak of then, and being that they were Orthodox, they attached themselves to what would become the Greek state.

Hi Spartan,

there was a force assimilation policy back then, if fact there where 2 Hellenization policy towards the Arvanites and others.

1. 1831: the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta.

2. 1930's.. The result of the 2nd Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks (Arvanites), especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.


hope this help

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Spartan, my problem is the latitude that is afforded to the Arvanites by Greeks. And then we see the blatant denial of the Macedonian identity by the same people. Beyond hypocritical. Anyone can be a Greek ... but God forbid a Macedonian can't be a Macedonian. Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Exactly the point Risto, even if both the modern Greeks and modern Macedonians were a variety of different peoples and ethnicities prior to their solidifying as nations in the 19th century, why is it OK for various people to identify as Greeks on the one hand, but not as Macedonians on the other? It is pure hypocrisy and nothing more.

Guys, I am pro self-identification, and I personally extend this to anyone living in any borders.

Originally Posted by Spartan

If they wish to be called Greeks, I for one will not deny them

Switch Greeks with Macedonians or any other nationality for that matter in this instance, and I still wont deny 'them', whoever 'them' may be. I extend this most basic of courtesies unconditionally.

Originally Posted by Struja

Hi Spartan,
there was a force assimilation policy back then, if fact there where 2 Hellenization policy towards the Arvanites and others.

1. 1831: the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta.

2. 1930's.. The result of the 2nd Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks (Arvanites), especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.

hope this help

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

I see your point Struja my friend, my point was more that the Arvanites did not resist assimilation, and actually embraced it. They dont want to be known as 'Arvanites', they dont try to keep their language alive, nor do they want minority status. Right or wrong, this is how they feel.
Some have been in Greece since the 11th century AD! Thats a long time, and if they feel Greek, who am I to argue with them?

[Risto the Great]

Spartan, I know your heart is in the right place.
The idea of self-identification is nice enough and a minimum right. However, the notion that some races are real and others merely have a right to self identify as Martians etc. is a little demeaning to me. I am saying that the Macedonian nation is no different to any other nation in the world. Truthfully, this is the minimum level I work with.

... off the soapbox now ....

[Soldier of Macedon]

Brother, is it really feasible to assume that of the hundreds of thousands of Arvanites there were none that wished to preserve their language and native ethnicity in the face of this peaceful assimilation, which offered only Greek as a language?

They mantained their ethnic Arvanite identity under the common Romaioi identity for centuries, but lost it rapidly when 'peacefully' assimilated (mutated) into Hellenes, would a tribal and warlike people of several hundred thousand just accept this?

Why didn't they lose their identity before as Romaioi? Why only as Hellenes?

Also, before the creation of the modern Greek state, do you think the Arvanites would have more affiliation with their linguistic and ethnic (and for many parts religious) kin in Epirus and Albania or with the Greek-speakers of the region?

Originally Posted by Spartan

Switch Greeks with Macedonians or any other nationality for that matter in this instance, and I still wont deny 'them', whoever 'them' may be. I extend this most basic of courtesies unconditionally.

I agree in principle, but I cannot accept those with questionable motives, particularly when I know what they are, when I know that they speak my language in their homes, among family, functions and events, etc, when I know they practice Macedonian customs at celebrations, weddings, etc - Yet call themselves 'Greek' because they don't know any better or they are Grkomani.

[Spartan]

I agree with you Risto, and I apologise if I offended you.
Maybe I didnt express my thoughts well. I did not mean that Macedonians are not real, and that I merely accept them because they identify as such.
Have a good night sir, we'll talk more tomorrow, as Im sure this topic will get alot of attention...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

..........the notion that some races are real and others merely have a right to self identify as Martians etc. is a little demeaning to me. I am saying that the Macedonian nation is no different to any other nation in the world. Truthfully, this is the minimum level I work with.

Perfectly put.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Brother, is it really feasible to assume that of the hundreds of thousands of Arvanites there were none that wished to preserve their language and native ethnicity in the face of this peaceful assimilation, which offered only Greek as a language?

Well SoM, I cant say that I know Balkan history like you, but I have never heard or read about Arvanites going through what the Macedonians in Greece have. Im sure, early on, they did face some discrimination, and I cant say that none of the Arvanites wished to preserve their culture as you say, but the majority as far as I know have willingly assimilated into the Greek culture, or else we would here more about it.

from Strujas link-

Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Áñâáíßôåò)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use

Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians

Almost all information about the present concerns the bulk of the Arvanite community in Central and Southern Greece. The other two communities are hardly mentioned in the literature and have also been ignored in the 1987 European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) visit to the Arvanite community in Greece, an oversight which led to at least one indirect protest letter by the Tychero municipality (Kazazis, 1994); nevertheless, a 1994 second visit by the EBLUL was again limited to the Central Greece Arvanite villages.

It is widely agreed that Arvanitika today have been influenced significantly by the linguistic environment in which they have evolved, sometimes for centuries, without any contact with the Albanian communities of modern day Albania.

I agree in principle, but I cannot accept those with questionable motives, particularly when I know what they are, when I know that they speak my language in their homes, among family, functions and events, etc, when I know they practice Macedonian customs at celebrations, weddings, etc - Yet call themselves 'Greek' because they don't know any better or they are Grkomani.

I cant disagree with much of what you say above SoM.
I would not accept this either.
But how do you go about argueng with someone who feels this way?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Why didn't they lose their identity before as Romaioi? Why only as Hellenes?

I believe this has to do with the emergance of modern day nationalities.
An Albanian minority is a very dangerous thing in the Balkans as we have all seen, and Greece obviously took some measures to not have their Arvanites referred to, or be identified with/as Albanians. Also, the Arvanites have been isolated from what is today Albania for a long time, 900 years for some.

Also, before the creation of the modern Greek state, do you think the Arvanites would have more affiliation with their linguistic and ethnic (and for many parts religious) kin in Epirus and Albania or with the Greek-speakers of the region?

I do.
This is evident from the Arvanites in Epirus and Macedonia(province), they identify much more with Albanians than the Arvanites of central or southern Greece. Probably due to the close proximity of Albania.

[TrueMacedonian]

YouTube - Athens Greece is Albanian village

It seems that people have been grabbing text right out of this forum and making youtube videos. The text in the above link is the original Edmond About text I used. And this is Makedoncheto's Balkan Freeboater - YouTube - Shock for Greek and Bulgarian propagandism, END for Greek and Bulgarian lies!

[Daskalot]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

YouTube - Athens Greece is Albanian village

It seems that people have been grabbing text right out of this forum and making youtube videos. The text in the above link is the original Edmond About text I used. And this is Makedoncheto's Balkan Freeboater - YouTube - Shock for Greek and Bulgarian propagandism, END for Greek and Bulgarian lies!

It is good to see that the information gathered gets to good use, that Albanian song is pretty catchy......