Kolokotronis the Albanian

[momce]

Yes the same process seemed to have been going on in "greece" and the Balkans. Basically formal terrorism by the "modern" greek purist party. But I see what was going on there in the revolution, the purists got other peoples to fight for their construct "Greece" and then they were murdered and jailed after the revolutionary war. The original revolutionary fighters seems did not have this purist vision of "greece" let alone of territories later claimed by this purist greek party. Todays "greeks" are so far removed from that process historically that theyre not aware of their real origins or of their pseudo-country. I think modern greek was basically a scam by elites they could force everyone to speak the same language quietly wiping out their own languages and cultures so they could collect at the centralised cash register. So the cultivation of "nationalism" was a power ploy. The "greek" elites themselves still obviously observed their non-greek culture privately. It makes sense since no one was speaking greek on the "greek mainland" since at least the Post-Alexandrian period. It makes sense more to me when I see how confused and unstable the modern greeks are brainwashed by a rentier culture, pseudo-modern Hellenism. It makes more sense to me when I notice no writer has every been able to write a modern greek "laografia".

[Carlin]

Additional sources.

1) In the first source, Kolokotronis is called an Arvanitovlach, and a testimony is provided where it is explained how he was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

- Ο Κολοκοτρώνης ήταν Αρβανιτόβλαχος --> Kolokotronis was an Arvanitovlach.
- The Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) of the era visited Kolokotronis in dens, wrote that Kolokotronis was speaking to his asker (soldiers) in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

Source:
http://users.sch.gr/spmentis/efimeri...2001/noe2001-6

2) Further connections of Kolokotronis to the Vlachs - this time to the Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs further north.

In a conversation with Theodoros Yennaiou Kolokotronis (Theodoros Kolokotronis’s young grandson), the falkari’s aged tselingas, whose name was Poulios, claimed to have been a companion of Konstandis and Theodoros Kolokotronis and a friend of Odysseas Androutsos. This supports Aravandinos’s view that there were Arvanitovlachs in Roumeli long before 1821, and it also, perhaps, bears out what Pouqueville says about the Vlachs from Kossina.

Source:
http://www.vlachs.gr/en/the-vlachs-m...ainland-greece

[Carlin]

Adding the following source as well, from To Vima.

Link to the article "We are all Vlachs" («Είμαστε όλοι Βλάχοι»):
http://www.tovima.gr/books-ideas/article/?aid=121715

Βλάχικης καταγωγής ήταν ο Κολοκοτρώνης (Τσεργίνης άλλωστε το πραγματικό επίθετό του), βλαχόφωνοι πολλοί συμπολεμιστές του

Kolokotronis was Vlach (besides, the actual last name was Tserginis), many of his comrades were Vlachophones

[Carlin]

Vlahs such as Kolokotronis and Rigas provided leadership in the struggle for independence from the Turks.



Source/Link:
http://www.academia.edu/302560/_The_..._the_Evidence_

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin

Additional sources.

1) In the first source, Kolokotronis is called an Arvanitovlach, and a testimony is provided where it is explained how he was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

- Ο Κολοκοτρώνης ήταν Αρβανιτόβλαχος --> Kolokotronis was an Arvanitovlach.
- The Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) of the era visited Kolokotronis in dens, wrote that Kolokotronis was speaking to his asker (soldiers) in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.

Source:
http://users.sch.gr/spmentis/efimeri...2001/noe2001-6

This is not a source but an unknown Vlach internet blogger called Babis Mentis (no further information could be found about him). He actually does not provide (any) sources. The style and arguments are not reliable; actually they’re laughable (e.g. he considers Kolokotronis’ straight and brutal humor as a typical Vlach one!).

Edit: Mentis actually provides his bio here (http://spmentis.mysch.gr/images/medi...S_MAS_2011.pdf, at page 10) as an amateur Vlach activist interested in Vlach cultural heritage and history.

Originally Posted by Carlin

2) Further connections of Kolokotronis to the Vlachs - this time to the Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs further north.

In a conversation with Theodoros Yennaiou Kolokotronis (Theodoros Kolokotronis’s young grandson), the falkari’s aged tselingas, whose name was Poulios, claimed to have been a companion of Konstandis and Theodoros Kolokotronis and a friend of Odysseas Androutsos. This supports Aravandinos’s view that there were Arvanitovlachs in Roumeli long before 1821, and it also, perhaps, bears out what Pouqueville says about the Vlachs from Kossina.

Source:
http://www.vlachs.gr/en/the-vlachs-m...ainland-greece

Are you sure you read the paragraph you copied? In this an old Arvanitovlach claims to have met Kolokotronis (and others) and has fought by their side.




===

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

This is not a source but an unknown Vlach internet blogger called Babis Mentis (no further information could be found about him). He actually does not provide (any) sources. The style and arguments are not reliable; actually they’re laughable (e.g. he considers Kolokotronis’ straight and brutal humor as a typical Vlach one!).

Edit: Mentis actually provides his bio here (http://spmentis.mysch.gr/images/medi...S_MAS_2011.pdf, at page 10) as an amateur Vlach activist interested in Vlach cultural heritage and history.

The man might be unknown, but that does not give us the right to dismiss him outright. As you noted, you were able to find his bio online so it's not like he is totally unreliable and/or unknown.

By the way, the authors of that blog (whether it was him, someone else, or a group of people) self identify as ETHNIC HELLENES. (Why would he/they go out of their way to assert that Kolokotronis was a Vlach-speaker?)

I think what's important and interesting here is whether the statement of the Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) that Kolokotronis was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika is true or not. It would be nice to see if the author can provide the source.

(What would your opinion be if this source can be identified, which shows Kolokotronis to be a Vlach-speaker?)

Are you sure you read the paragraph you copied? In this an old Arvanitovlach claims to have met Kolokotronis (and others) and has fought by their side.
===

Correct. It's simply another proof that Kolokotronis was connected to the Vlachs, and had Vlach-speaking comrades and companions.

What do you think of the ToVima source/link? It explicitly states that Kolokotronis was a Vlach whose real surname was Tserginis, and who had many Vlach companions.

I believe there might be something to these claims.

NOTE that these are all claims by people who self identify as modern Hellenes/Greeks. They are hardly done in a mean-spirited or propagandist way.

[Carlin]

Interesting - further explicit connections to the Vlachs.

I mention Theodoros (of Geneos) Kolokotronis’ information that Arvanito-Aromanian women in Roumeli (Central Greece) composed (matching Greek and Aromanian languages) heroic songs, which all people of that time knew and sang.

Source:
http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/1...ians-with.html

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin

The man might be unknown, but that does not give us the right to dismiss him outright. As you noted, you were able to find his bio online so it's not like he is totally unreliable and/or unknown.

By the way, the authors of that blog (whether it was him, someone else, or a group of people) self identify as ETHNIC HELLENES. (Why would he/they go out of their way to assert that Kolokotronis was a Vlach-speaker?)

I think what's important and interesting here is whether the statement of the Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) that Kolokotronis was speaking to his soldiers in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika is true or not. It would be nice to see if the author can provide the source.

(What would your opinion be if this source can be identified, which shows Kolokotronis to be a Vlach-speaker?)

1. His bio is provided by him in an internet book he wrote about the history of his family and his village. He says he has no scientific credentials but does not give further information about himself. I wasn’t implying I’m against amateurs writing history books or opinions.

2. Probably because they’re Vlachs. Yet, I don’t see anyone suggesting Kolokotronis was Vlach. In a superficial research I couldn’t find reliable sources on the foreign languages he could speak.

3. We would evaluate it if we could see the source. All I have to say is Kolokotronis was a very important person and 1820s was not in prehistoric era; there are no big mysteries either in his life or the languages and dialects spoken at the time. What unbelievable and missing information could one expect?

4. It is your interpretation that a language other than Greek and Arvanite would be Vlach. We’ve read foreign hellenists who could speak (ancient) Greek in Erasmian pronunciation, being unable to understand modern Greeks or be understood by them (mostly because of pronunciation), so go figure.

Originally Posted by Carlin

Correct. It's simply another proof that Kolokotronis was connected to the Vlachs, and had Vlach-speaking comrades and companions.
What do you think of the ToVima source/link? It explicitly states that Kolokotronis was a Vlach whose real surname was Tserginis, and who had many Vlach companions.
I believe there might be something to these claims.
NOTE that these are all claims by people who self identify as modern Hellenes/Greeks. They are hardly done in a mean-spirited or propagandist way.

1. No, it’s not. Funnily enough, the author stands skeptical that an Arvanitovlach could have gone that South.

2. No, it doesn’t. It’s not clear if that’s written on the commentary about the book, or the book itself, or what it implies. That Tserginis is a Vlach name? LOL, That would be news to Kolokotronis himself if he could read it.

3. Mertzos (the author of the book) is a well-known Greek nationalist who is Vlach. This is a political manifest.

4. I don’t know anyone seriously claiming that Kolokotronis was a Vlach or an Arvanite or any relevant scientific article. Most reliable info about his ancestry comes from his memoirs, the very first pages actually. They can be found online in English translation I believe.


===

[Carlin]

In what sense is the term "Vlach" used in the Source below?

Phrantzes asserts the people of the Peloponnese called Kolokotronis KING OF THE VLACHS (Abridged History, Volume 4, p. 131).




"… of worthiness in the various siege and battles for this the ordinary people named him King of the Vlachs, or Vlachovasilia."


PS: There are other sources (at least five more), one of which specifically makes mention of βλαχικη διαλεκτο του (that is, the "Vlach dialect").

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin

In what sense is the term "Vlach" used in the Source below?

Phrantzes asserts the people of the Peloponnese called Kolokotronis KING OF THE VLACHS (Abridged History, Volume 4, p. 131).

"… of worthiness in the various siege and battles for this the ordinary people named him King of the Vlachs, or Vlachovasilia."


PS: There are other sources (at least five more), one of which specifically makes mention of βλαχικη διαλεκτο του (that is, the "Vlach dialect").

It's mostly in the sense of "peasant" (actually the opposite of “tsopelos”, a city dweller). Yet, what the author misses is that the term is not exactly affectionate, but also slightly satirical. The same satirical, condescending term was later used for "Vlachoepanastasi" (Vlach uprising) an 1834 uprising that did not involve any Vlachs.