1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

That appears to make some sense as they are in the southermost regions of the Peloponnese. Our old friend Spartan would have been happy with that comment

To be honest, I do not know much things about Maniates and their ethnic affiliation. I am very intrigued if they were some remains of an older Spartan population (as many Phil-hellenes pathetically claimed) or blended with Albanians settlers, as they become so similar both in language and way of life. They were famous for being one of the most warlike tribe in the whole Morea and Ottomans could submit them only superficially.

Like the Albanians, the Maniatai have many chivalrous qualities. A woman can travel all over Mane, and will be sure of her countrymen's respect. Indeed, the bloody annals of Mane's struggles against the Turks show that the fine Maniate women have proved themselves as courageous as the men, and have always been well able to defend themselves. Hospitality has always been a Maniate trait. If a stranger appeals to a Maniate for protection, his host will allow himself to be killed rather than break the code of honour by giving up his guest. Clannishness is naturally characteristic of such a people.

Greek life in town & country, William Miller - 1905

There are many other things that deserve to be further examined in that book: http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...ntry-lli.shtml

So according to the above description, Maniates cherish almost all characteristics which Albanians are most famous for. The Maniates were divided into several clans, which were hostile to each other. They had also a code of honor and hospitality was one of pillars of their code.

The same has been observed as well from an another author:

Very similar in their character to the Albanians in the north of Greece are the Mainiotes at the southern extremity of the Morea. These people, supposed to be the descendants of ancient Sparta,


The Quarterly review, Volume 23 By William Gifford,

Whereas the following passage reveal the ignorance of some foreign observers who considered Maniotes as one of the purest Greek groups, while they were nothing else but Albanians:

The Mainotes, or Maniotes. of the peninsula terminating in Cape Matapan, are generally supposed to be the Greeks of the purest blood. They themselves claim to be the descendants of the ancient Spartans, and amongst their strongholds they still point out one which belonged to " Signor Lycurgus." Their Councils of Elders have preserved from immemorial times, and down to the war of independence, the title of Senate of Lacedaemonia. Every Mainote professes to love unto death " Liberty, the highest of all goods, inherited from our Spartan ancestors." Nevertheless, a good many localities in Maina bear names derived from the Servian, and these prove, at all events, that the Slays resided in the country for a considerable time. The Mainotes practise the rendetta, as if they were Montenegrins. But is not this a common custom amongst all uncivilised nations ?

Or this one:

The martial spirit and the partial independence of the Souliotes of Northern Greece, and the Maniats (commonly written Maniotes)of the Peloponnesus, the former of Albanian, the latter of the purest Greek lineage,

The Southern magazine: Volume 13, Southern Historical Society - 1873

It is historically known that Albanians were settled in Mani:

Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands.

Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation

If I am not mistaken, it was the Arvanite intellectual, Aristidh Kola who suggested that Mani has taken its name from Albanian. "Man" in Albanian means 'mulberry'. I am not sure if this etymology should be maintained? What are your thoughts?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.

In principle, I agree that a section of ancient Greeks may have survived at a certain scale, but this needs to be further elaborated. I have no problem to accept that some Spartan tribes could escape from assimilation due to the remote terrain of Peloponnese. But neo-Greeks as far as I know never pay attention to them. Instead they stubbornly claimed unbroken continuity to some groups, who had not a single tie with ancient Hellenes (for instance, 'Asiatic' greek-speakings). Now this open a new question: if Maniotes are descended from ancient Spartans, then why this has been denied for Albanians, Macedonians and even Turks to be consider as descendants of Illyrians, Macedonians and Anatolians, respectively?

Secondly, if Maniotes are really Spartan's remains, then why they are so similar with Albanians?
If Maniotes are really Greeks, then why their descendants in southern Italy call themselves as Albanians? I am referring to the inhabitants of "Piana degli Albanesi", which was found by Albanian emigrants who got expelled from Koron in the Mani region.

There exists some evidences that Albanian Himariotes are nothing else but descendants of Maniotes. It would be unnecessary to bring dozens of facts about Albanian identity of Himariotes. Their case perhaps cast some light about the ethnic affiliation of Maniotes!

[Epirot]

Greece has long been a reservoir of fugitives from nations differing in habits, language, religion, and blood. The Albanian from the marshes of Dacia; the Italian, planted during the western invasion under the Venetians; the Norman ; the dispersed families of Constantinople and Asia Minor ; with, in the midst of her mountains, a precious and scarcely mingled remnant of the ancient blood of Hellas; yet all those characters have rapidly given way, and hecn moulded into one by the power of position.

Blackwood's magazine, Volume 20

Wait a second here...I thought Greece has been always a reservoir of a pure Greek race whose lineal continuity can be traced back to the Bronze age

[Epirot]

The European concert



The story of Greece is indeed funny, isn't? One does not even know whether to call it tragic or comic?! An Orthodox Albanian quarreling with a Muslim Albanian. This is the plain truth, whether you like or not. This the true story of the so called Greek Revolution, which had nothing Hellenic. In the background, Great Powers were enjoying the bloody fight and at the same time, they were ready to re-name the involved parts in the war. The Orthodox Albanian hence now would be called a genuine Greek (presumably descended from old Greeks), while Muslim Albanian would be called a fierce Turk who came from the midst of Asia.

[julie]

Thanks for those posts Epirot

[Onur]

I have this one in my bookmarks;

“Turkish & Grecian”

by Thomas Nast

January 15, 1881



This Harper’s Weekly cartoon by Thomas Nast reflects American reticence to arbitrate a border dispute between two longstanding enemies, Greece and Turkey.

In 1829, Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey and its satellite territories. In the 1840s and 1850s, the Greek “Great Idea” developed of restoring a Christian Orthodox Byzantine Empire, with its capital once again in Constantinople, Turkey’s capital. Following Turkey’s defeat in the Russo-Turkish War, the Berlin Treaty of 1878 awarded the province of Thessaly and part of Epirus from Turkey to Greece.

In this Harper’s Weekly cartoon, artist Thomas Nast notes Britain’s request for American intervention as a neutral arbiter in the Greek-Turkish border controversy. The cartoonist places blame for the situation, which, in his opinion, pitted equal claimants to the land, on British meddling in the region. The implication of the cartoon is that the United States would be wise not to become involved in the entangling affair; advice heeded by the incoming administration of President James Garfield. Later in 1881, mediation of Europe’s Great Powers resulted in Turkey ceding the Ionian Islands to Greece.

http://www.harpweek.com/09cartoon/Br...anuary&Date=15

[arqe88]

in greece there are 3,5 million arvanites, and 900k albanian immigrants

[George S.]

i thought the figure was higher more to the 4million mark.

[arqe88]

Originally Posted by George S.

i thought the figure was higher more to the 4million mark.

could be, but i really doubt it, the rest of the Greek population are hellish mix, around 50% have lost their roots. My uncle was in Thessaloníki last summer, and he said that the majority looked like turks and gypsis, they were rude, arrogant, yelling, the car drivers showed little respect for people crossing the roads.