1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.

Both Maniotes and Tsakonians are actually of Vlach origin; they may have mixed with Slavs and Albanians. They were hellenized only after the 1820s and creation of Greece. Maina itself was established by Justinian and settled by Roman colonists ('Vlachs'). The "Spartan descent" of Maniotes or Tsakonians was a late invention of Greek propaganda.

At the turn of the 19th century Romaic or Greek speakers were a 'social class' of educated Orthodox Christians. Greek was the 'official' and only language of Orthodox Church and literacy. In general, educated and literate people knew (or acquired the knowledge of) Greek, whether they were merchants, priests, translators/dragomans, etc.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Carlin

Maina itself was established by Justinian and settled by Roman colonists ('Vlachs').

Carlin, is there a source and citation for the above?

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Carlin, is there a source and citation for the above?

Constantine Porphyrogenitus, De Admin. Imperio; located in section 15 De Peloponnesi thematis Sclavis:

Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs but from the older Romans, who up to the present time are termed "Hellenes" by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation.


The funny thing is that modern Greek propaganda actually uses this passage as a proof that Maniots are of ancient Hellenic stock, even though it states something totally different.

Constantine quite clearly states that inhabitants of Maina are Romans by race, not Slavs. Furthermore, the local people referred to them as "Hellenes" on account of their (pagan) religion, not ethnicity. They 'ceased' being Hellenes once they were baptized and became Christians.

The Bulgarian translation of De Admin. Imperio has a footnote in the text stating that Maina was established around the time of Emperor Justinian. In other words, it was established in late 5th/early 6th century. I don't have a copy of the text though.

There are also texts which I'm in the process of verifying as being legit, and not recent forgeries. They are documents written in Greek, from early 20th century around the time of World War I. In it it explains in some detail the ethnic composition of Peloponnese in the mid 19th century. It says that Peloponnese was largely inhabited by Vlachs and Albanians, with Vlachs being in majority. It also specifically states that both Maniots and Tsakonians are themselves Vlachs.

Hope that helps.

[Voltron]

No, it doesnt help. Friendly suggestion, read up on Tsakonian Greek. It might help you in drawing your own conclusions.

http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-tsakonian.html

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Voltron

No, it doesnt help. Friendly suggestion, read up on Tsakonian Greek. It might help you in drawing your own conclusions.

http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-tsakonian.html

In general, I base my conclusions on facts and evidence. If there is new evidence uncovered, which proves or disproves a certain theory in any way, I am forced to re-evaluate my positions and beliefs. Any intellectually honest person would do that.

As far as your link goes it is interesting indeed, considering it's the Lord's prayer and nothing more than that. I do not doubt for a second that a segment of the Tsakonian people, namely the clergy, spoke Greek. I'm sure there were other individuals who knew and spoke Greek.

Nevertheless - will you consider the following facts and arguments:

The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel in Morea shortly after the War of Independence, 1821. He specifically makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains. Knowing where Argos is geographically located the evidence points to following directions: Arcadia, and to the south of Argos: precisely where Tsakonians lived.

[Cousinery H.E.M., _Voyage dans de la Macédoine_, Book I. Paris, 1831,p.18; cited in Koukoudis, A, _The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora_, Zitros Publications, Thessaloniki, 2000 (in Greek)]

There is also the unresolved issue of the widespread Slavonic-like, Vlach, Albanian, and Latin-derived toponyms all over Morea, a subject of tempting speculation... Tsakonia is full of such toponyms.

[Swkrath N. Liakou: Ermhneia Ebdomhnta Sklabhnikwn Topwnumiwn ths Arkadias (me tis Latinikh Keltikh Arbanitikh Armanikh), Mikroeurwpaikes (Balkanikes) Meletes 13, Qessalonikh, Iounios, 1981]

Does that help?

PS: Last but not least, let us not forget the Moraitiko traditional song:
"Mia Vlacha Vlachopoula, Arvanitopoula..."

[Voltron]

Carlin, I think you missed something. The lord prayer is just an example of Tsakonia dialect as it is in other languages. Here is one in Old Church Slavonic. You can maybe verify if its correct or not since I dont know anything about it. -> http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-slavonic.html

Now unless Vlachs picked up Doric Greek which I find extremely unlikely since they are Latin speakers I just dont see how your conclusion makes any sense. Vlachs and Arvanites are an integral component to the modern Greek ethnos so that goes without saying. Yes, they were and are distinct ethnicities in their own right but the ones that have assimilated over the centuries (in the case of Vlachs it goes much further back) are now Greek. There is also supporting evidence that Vlachs may in fact be Latinised Greeks from the Roman era so in that case it would go full circle. Your lyric example from the song that shows we have words to describe Vlachs and Arvanites illustrate that we are not oblivious to this fact. Our issue is when people try to deliberatly seperate them from the Greek ethnos when they themselves are perfectly fine with it. Ethnos is not defined by blood, and here in the Balkans nobody is more genetically purer than the next so its a mute point at the end of the day.

[Carlin]

That's fine and I completely agree with you that a nation or national identity is not defined by 'blood' or descent. I also have no problem with Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians and others having Greek ethnic consciousness and identity. I would also say there is nothing wrong with a Vlach or Albanian claiming or believing he is a direct descendant of Pericles or Alexander: it may be delusional, but not illegal or wrong.

Conflict and other problems arise when modern Greeks (themselves of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic descent) and Greece as a State deny this same right of self-identification to their neighbors.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Now unless Vlachs picked up Doric Greek which I find extremely unlikely since they are Latin speakers I just dont see how your conclusion makes any sense.

Voltron, can you please explain what exactly is 'Doric' about the Tsakonian dialect?

There is also supporting evidence that Vlachs may in fact be Latinised Greeks from the Roman era so in that case it would go full circle.

What supporting evidence? The contemporary evidence that I have seen appears to indicate that many Greek regions were depopulated then repopulation by Roman colonists (among other).

Our issue is when people try to deliberatly seperate them from the Greek ethnos when they themselves are perfectly fine with it.

Can you run us through the process of how Albanians and Vlachs became ethnic Greeks? What happened? When did it happen? Why did it happen?

[Carlin]

In the book "Political Science Quarterly" edited by the Faculty of Political Science of Columbia University, Twenty-third volume, published in 1908 on page 307 we read:

"...They themselves knew the differences in their origins and in such traditions as they had; some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians..."

Macedonia and Greece, John Shea, 1997 pp.77-96:

1. "Slavs were not the only groups to move into the southern part of the Balkan peninsula. Many Albanians came in also. Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands."
2. "The Vlachs seem to have left Dacia as part of a wave of migration that spread throughout the Balkans from Greece, where they are known as Kutzo Vlachs, Tzintzars, or Aromani, through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia to the Trieste region. Many of them are still in these areas today. They all speak varieties of Romanian, but represent the remnants of originally Dacian-, Illyrian-, Thracian- and even Scythian- speaking tribes. Vlachs settled in Thessaly, Roumeli, the Ionian islands and the Aegean islands."

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Voltron, can you please explain what exactly is 'Doric' about the Tsakonian dialect?

Im not a Tsakonian speaker and after reading some of the examples in Tsakonian I must admit it is not easy. I do recognize archaic words still retained in their dialect that is no longer in use in modern Greek. Words for water and sheep for example. Linguists do agree that the dialect is Doric based. Its a shame we cant keep this dialect alive. We receive criticism of not supporting other minorites languages and we cant even support our own.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Rafte

"Compare the Northern and Southern word for water, ύο (io, derived from Ancient Greek ὓδωρ) to Propontic νερέ and Standard νερό (nere, nero). "

What supporting evidence? The contemporary evidence that I have seen appears to indicate that many Greek regions were depopulated then repopulation by Roman colonists (among other).

Vlachs is a blanket term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans.
There has been studies conducted by anthrolopogists that support a Hellenic descent for some of these Vlach groups. Il try to get more on that although Im sure you heard it before.

Can you run us through the process of how Albanians and Vlachs became ethnic Greeks? What happened? When did it happen? Why did it happen?

The same way a Berzite or Draguvite becomes a Macedonian.