Russia, Ukraine and the West

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

I wasn't referring to you or anyone else, I was merely being cheeky about conspiracy theories in general. I don't think large corporations are perfect. Certainly they have undue influence over government (though I do think their views in decision-making are still important because they hold industry expertise). It also concerns me that some large corporations have caused considerable damage to both the environment and human health. One relevant example for Australia is the idiotically large amounts of asbestos used in the residential and commercial construction industry over a very long period of time. Most Australian homes still have asbestos products in them (it wasn't officially banned until 2004, but was generally out of use after 1990) and one must be very careful when renovating or having contractors do work.

On the other hand, large corporations also create significant wealth, not only for wealthy 'elites', but ordinary families as well. They do this through job creation and investment opportunities. I read recently that in 2008, 57 million American households owned stocks/shares in public companies. From the figures I've seen, there are about 115 million households in the US. That means about 50 per cent of American households derive some income from public companies, in addition to the people they employ (though there's obviously probably some crossover here).

Another positive about large corporations/companies is that they do invest in communities. I know that a recent survey in the US estimated that corporations donated about $19 billion in cash and products to charities. That's not much compared to how much they actually make, but its still $19 billion more than they had to give. I'm not sure about American companies (though I suspect it may be the same), but many Australian companies (such as mining companies) also invest in infrastructure like roads, rail, seaports and airports, but also community housing, parks and other facilities. The transport infrastructure is mainly to service their own needs, but it is also used by the economy more widely and the community.

We shouldn't forget the revenue they generate for government coffers (through taxation) either. I'm not sure how much tax the Federal and State governments collect from corporations, but I suspect it would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars. This is used for education, health, infrastructure and yes, bombing foreign countries. But without that corporate wealth, western countries would not enjoy the level of living standards that they do.

There's a lot I can say about this (both in agreement and disagreement) but it would be taking away from the topic more than we have already.


Meanwhile, two interesting articles on Ukraine:

Ukraine Crisis is a Buying Opportunity for Russian Energy Giants

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...r-russian.aspx


Ukraine Protesters Hired Kiev Snipers

http://news.antiwar.com/2014/03/05/u...-kiev-snipers/

[vicsinad]

Obama just stated that a Crimea referendum on whether they want to be independent, with Ukraine, or join Russia would violate international law.

I find it quite depressing that people of a specific region choosing their own future is considered to be, or is perceived to be, illegal.

[George S.]

just heard Russian news ,Russian parliament voted that the crimea is part of Russia.So war will be inevitable.

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

Obama just stated that a Crimea referendum on whether they want to be independent, with Ukraine, or join Russia would violate international law.

I find it quite depressing that people of a specific region choosing their own future is considered to be, or is perceived to be, illegal.

I wonder if it will be illegal if the albanians in Macedonia choose to do it, and was it illegal when they wanted to break up Yugoslavia.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by George S.

just heard Russian news ,Russian parliament voted that the crimea is part of Russia.So war will be inevitable.

I don't think they Ukrainians will fight over Crimea - its not central to their territorial identity. Even many 'Greater Ukranian' nationalists leave it out of their maps and definitions of Ukraine (while claiming Russian territory up to the Caspian Sea). The potential resistance to look out for will be the Crimean Tartars.

The other problem with Ukrainian resistance is that its military reflects the rest of the counrty - its divided between Ukrainians and Russophiles and that's why so many of them have defected to the Russians. Its virtually a worthless force and I imagine that it will be restructed after this (if they're smart).

I would have liked to see Ukraine fight back because it would have destroyed the myth of the Russian military, which is a basket case. Even though the Ukrainian military is much smaller, they are still large enough to draw the Russians into a stalemate simply becuase the Russian armed forces are chaotic.

Lesson for everyone - don't give up your nuclear weapons on the hopes that others give a F about your country.

[Gocka]

I would have liked to see Ukraine fight back because it would have destroyed the myth of the Russian military, which is a basket case. Even though the Ukrainian military is much smaller, they are still large enough to draw the Russians into a stalemate simply becuase the Russian armed forces are chaotic.

I dont know about that one. Russian special forces are probably the best around, and they have pretty disciplined and well trained soldiers. Ukraine's army is big enough that they can put up a fight but that's about it.

Why do you think Russia has a weak army? That's all that has kept them on the world stage all this time, their army. I think this is your political bias talking.

[Vangelovski]

An interesting perspective...though I don't know what European values are exactly:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/05/op...raine-austria/

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

I dont know about that one. Russian special forces are probably the best around, and they have pretty disciplined and well trained soldiers. Ukraine's army is big enough that they can put up a fight but that's about it.

Why do you think Russia has a weak army? That's all that has kept them on the world stage all this time, their army. I think this is your political bias talking.

Gocka, why is everything about bias for you?

Special forces don't fight full-scale wars, they undertake small, specific missions. While there are some elements within the Russian armed forces (some special forces units, most fighter/bobmer wings, the strategic rocket forces and various specialist elements within the Navy) the bulk of the armed forces are ill-trained, ill-equiped, inexperienced, ill-fed and have serious morale issues. Word War II was the last time Russia fought a major conflict of the type that the Ukraine could potentially put up. Since then, its only fought partizan-style resistance forces.

If it helps you, even the United States, which is much better prepared, trained and equiped would be ill-prepared to fight a major war in my opinion.

[Gocka]

Gocka, why is everything about bias for you?

Everyone has a bias, some of us are just more honest about it, with others and with ourselves. To the rest of us yours is rather obvious (which is okay) no sense in trying to pretend like we all always speak and think with out any bias.

Also it doesn't make me feel "better" if you criticize the US as well. See you know I have a bias against the US, because its obvious.

I mean is anyone really "equipped" for such an all out war with a country as big as Ukraine?

Besides I think the time of those kind of wars is fading and will eventually be a thing of the past. The world is so mixed and interconnected that eventually no one will want to go to war with anyone, in an official capacity at least.

I think in the last 10 years we are seeing the early stages of the future look of war. Use of local radicalism, economic and cyber wars. Why send your own citizens to die when you can find a disgruntled group in almost any country who is willing to fight as long as you lend a hand.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

I mean is anyone really "equipped" for such an all out war with a country as big as Ukraine?

Besides I think the time of those kind of wars is fading and will eventually be a thing of the past. The world is so mixed and interconnected that eventually no one will want to go to war with anyone, in an official capacity at least.

I think in the last 10 years we are seeing the early stages of the future look of war. Use of local radicalism, economic and cyber wars. Why send your own citizens to die when you can find a disgruntled group in almost any country who is willing to fight as long as you lend a hand.

Why do you think any of this? What have we seen in the last 10 years? The US has literally sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers into war. Who else is going to fight their battles?