Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Big Bad Sven]

Has Blackwater been deployed to Ukraine? Notorious U.S. mercenaries 'seen on the streets of flashpoint city' as Russia claims 300 hired guns have arrived in country

- Unidentified armed men seen on the streets of Donetsk in east Ukraine
- Russian diplomat claims 300 mercenaries had arrived in Kiev this week
-Mercenaries in the region could give Putin pretext for military action
-Donetsk has been the scene of big pro-Russian demonstrations this week


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Donetsk.html

[Big Bad Sven]

Supposedly there are now hired Blackwater mercenaries in the city of Donetsk to keep people from protesting and to force them to accept orders from Kiev. The oligarch who was put in charge of the city on the suggestion of the other oligarch Yulia Tymochenko, and who the people do not want is considered one of the richest men in the world. Maybe he's paying for the blackwater thugs.

In the end i feel sorry for the people of Ukraine. Outside forces manipulated what was to be a peaceful protest, and now the country has gone to shit.

We have western and russian mercenaries bullying the population so we will never really know what ukrainians really think. The only thing we do no is that the ethnic russian minority in Crimea dont want to be a part of Ukraine.

I also feel sorry for the Western Ukrainians, when Russia turns off the gas do you think the sick man of europe (the EU) will care or help? Or what about catholic brother Poland? LOL they wont do anything to help them

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Sven

Has Blackwater been deployed to Ukraine? Notorious U.S. mercenaries 'seen on the streets of flashpoint city' as Russia claims 300 hired guns have arrived in country

- Unidentified armed men seen on the streets of Donetsk in east Ukraine
- Russian diplomat claims 300 mercenaries had arrived in Kiev this week
-Mercenaries in the region could give Putin pretext for military action
-Donetsk has been the scene of big pro-Russian demonstrations this week




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Donetsk.html

Without a shadow of doubt, American intelligence will be all over it with men on the ground. it will be a treasure trove of information for the Americans in determining the capabilities and determination of both sides and how the situation can be exploited to America's advantage.
Although I reckon the American's would be conducting far more covert actions than running around waving guns in public...

Surely Blackwater or whatever they call themselves today have evolved since their debacles in Iraq...

[George S.]

if they are sending in mercenaries looks like it will escalate further.I don't think either side wants peaceat this stage.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

The other problem with Ukrainian resistance is that its military reflects the rest of the country - its divided between Ukrainians and Russophiles and that's why so many of them have defected to the Russians. Its virtually a worthless force and I imagine that it will be restructured after this (if they're smart).

Looks like they took my advice...

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...140311?sp=true

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Looks like they took my advice...

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...140311?sp=true

Its a smart choice for Ukraine to build a pro Ukraine army from scratch, but at the same time its bound to cause even more division among Ukrainian citizens. Now your going to end up with 3 armies in Ukraine, Pro Ukrainian, Pro Russian, and Russian. What happens to all the pro Russian soldiers? Do they get kicked out of the army, what about their munitions and the bases they control?

This could play into Russia's hands. For example, lets say Ukraine is able to build a sizable Pro Ukrainian army, then what? What is the next step, what is that army going to be used for? To drive the Russians out? To regain control of military establishments that are controlled by pro Russian forces? If the choose to try and displace and disarm the Pro Russian forces we are talking about a potential full on civil war, at which point surely the Russian's will get involved to help their side.

In my opinion, Russia does not want to fire the first shot, so they are trying to provoke the Pro west government to cross that line first so they can say that they were just defending themselves and/or the Rusophills.

What happens on Sunday when the referendum end with a pro Russia vote? Will Ukraine physically try to stop them?

I dont like the way this is playing out, people are bound to die.


On a side note, Russia's air force outnumber Ukraine's 100 -1, that is staggering.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

Its a smart choice for Ukraine to build a pro Ukraine army from scratch, but at the same time its bound to cause even more division among Ukrainian citizens. Now your going to end up with 3 armies in Ukraine, Pro Ukrainian, Pro Russian, and Russian. What happens to all the pro Russian soldiers? Do they get kicked out of the army, what about their munitions and the bases they control? .

Pro-Russian militia's are basically made up of Russophile servicemen and reservists, so they already have any army.

Originally Posted by Gocka

This could play into Russia's hands. For example, lets say Ukraine is able to build a sizable Pro Ukrainian army, then what? What is the next step, what is that army going to be used for? To drive the Russians out? To regain control of military establishments that are controlled by pro Russian forces? If the choose to try and displace and disarm the Pro Russian forces we are talking about a potential full on civil war, at which point surely the Russian's will get involved to help their side.

If you're not going to defend your state then what's the point of having one? The Russians are already involved.

Originally Posted by Gocka

In my opinion, Russia does not want to fire the first shot, so they are trying to provoke the Pro west government to cross that line first so they can say that they were just defending themselves and/or the Rusophills.

In what universe could the Russians logically claim that they are defending themselves seeing as they have invaded Ukraine? Regardless of who Crimea should belong to - and I would say the Tartars have the most convincing claim - Russia sent its military across an international border.

Originally Posted by Gocka

What happens on Sunday when the referendum end with a pro Russia vote? Will Ukraine physically try to stop them?.

I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Gocka

I dont like the way this is playing out, people are bound to die..

Everyone dies. But in this specific case, it will be in defence of their freedom. Freedom has a price you know. If the Ukrainians wanted to just have pretend freedom (akin to children playing 'mummies and daddies') they should have just remained a part of the Soviet Union or merged with Russia after its collapse.

Originally Posted by Gocka

On a side note, Russia's air force outnumber Ukraine's 100 -1, that is staggering.

That's just an exaggeration...or a misprint. Its actually closer to 10-1, but its a mystery as to how many aircraft are actually combat capable.

[Gocka]

Some interesting logic there mister Vangelovski, I wonder how fast you would run to Macedonia to die, in order to defend it should it be necessary (it once was, I wonder if you were there).

I dont like how cavalier you are with death, especially when it concerns others. I hate the romanticizing of death, like there is ever a good reason to die. Death is cold, ugly and permanent there is nothing glorious or worthy about it.

You dont feel any sympathy for those who would potentially die should this turn into a war? On either side? Or are they just a "price" that needs to be paid in order to obtain freedom.

Also how do you know for a fact that Russia's air force is not 100x that of Ukraine? Got any statistics?

Also I didn't say Russia's claims would be logical, I just said that's what they would claim. They already said that the reason they sent troops into Ukraine in the first place was to protect Russians from aggression, now they are just waiting for any act of aggression so that they can say "see we told you so".

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

Some interesting logic there mister Vangelovski, I wonder how fast you would run to Macedonia to die, in order to defend it should it be necessary (it once was, I wonder if you were there).

I dont like how cavalier you are with death, especially when it concerns others. I hate the romanticizing of death, like there is ever a good reason to die. Death is cold, ugly and permanent there is nothing glorious or worthy about it.

You dont feel any sympathy for those who would potentially die should this turn into a war? On either side? Or are they just a "price" that needs to be paid in order to obtain freedom.

Gocka, do you think that you will live forever? Even if you live to 100, then there is the question of quality of life. But that was a general statement.

National freedom (and sometimes personal freedom) requires sacrifice, and sometimes people die. I agree, there is nothing romantic about it - its just the ugly truth. What I find fascinating is that people seem to think that it can be obtained and maintained easily and without sacrifice. Collective and individual freedom is not for the faint hearted. If death (something which comes to all of us eventually) scares you, then don't get involved in liberation struggles (along with a host of other activities such as driving) - but don't try and discourage others from doing so.

Originally Posted by Gocka

Also how do you know for a fact that Russia's air force is not 100x that of Ukraine? Got any statistics?.

Yes, The Military Balance (2014) reports that Russia has 1,389 combat ready aircraft and Ukraine has 221 combat ready aircraft. So in fact, its closer to 6 to 1 rather than the 10 to 1 I originally suggested.

Originally Posted by Gocka

Also I didn't say Russia's claims would be logical, I just said that's what they would claim. They already said that the reason they sent troops into Ukraine in the first place was to protect Russians from aggression, now they are just waiting for any act of aggression so that they can say "see we told you so".

Russia can claim whatever it likes and say "we told you so" as much as it likes - it doesn't change reality.

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Gocka, do you think that you will live forever? Even if you live to 100, then there is the question of quality of life. But that was a general statement.

National freedom (and sometimes personal freedom) requires sacrifice, and sometimes people die. I agree, there is nothing romantic about it - its just the ugly truth. What I find fascinating is that people seem to think that it can be obtained and maintained easily and without sacrifice. Collective and individual freedom is not for the faint hearted. If death (something which comes to all of us eventually) scares you, then don't get involved in liberation struggles (along with a host of other activities such as driving) - but don't try and discourage others from doing so.

Yes, The Military Balance (2014) reports that Russia has 1,389 combat ready aircraft and Ukraine has 221 combat ready aircraft. So in fact, its closer to 6 to 1 rather than the 10 to 1 I originally suggested.

Russia can claim whatever it likes and say "we told you so" as much as it likes - it doesn't change reality.

You know very well that I never suggested nor eluded to most of what you just wrote.

We will all die one day, that doesn't mean it should be just whenever or what ever. The main goal in an crisis should be to minimize the loss of life.

Sacrifice, when you substitute the word death with something like sacrifice it almost takes the sting out of the reality of it.

Maintaining freedom takes constant effort yes but death? What good is freedom when you are dead? Its just bad practice to be so cavalier with the notion of death. So please dont pretend that you do no fear it (death). We all do, no one wants to die, and most sane people would avoid death at all costs.

Don't try and discourage others from doing what man? Dying? Are you madd?

Why are you equating fear of death, with not wanting to die prematurely?

Please dont diminish the seriousness of death with overly romanticized notions of freedom. Its not good for the Macedonian cause and it makes you look crazy.

About Russia, no one spoke of "reality", you delve too quickly into a theoretical struggle and your self lose touch with the reality of what people are saying. I spoke about some potential scenarios and how Russia would react to them, I never said whether it was right or wrong, logical or illogical, real or unreal. You eventually said what I said in the first place.

Seriously though, the way you speak about death, irks me. It just sounds fake, it just sounds like something theoretical that you would never actually do which in the end makes it worthless.


Edit, You were initially right about the the air force ratio, it is in fact 10:1. Russia has a lot more air craft that are not serviced and prepped for combat, nor do they have a sufficient amount of pilots even if all their planes were combat ready.