Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

You know very well that I never suggested nor eluded to most of what you just wrote.

We will all die one day, that doesn't mean it should be just whenever or what ever. The main goal in an crisis should be to minimize the loss of life.

Sacrifice, when you substitute the word death with something like sacrifice it almost takes the sting out of the reality of it.

Maintaining freedom takes constant effort yes but death? What good is freedom when you are dead? Its just bad practice to be so cavalier with the notion of death. So please dont pretend that you do no fear it (death). We all do, no one wants to die, and most sane people would avoid death at all costs.

Don't try and discourage others from doing what man? Dying? Are you madd?

Why are you equating fear of death, with not wanting to die prematurely?

Please dont diminish the seriousness of death with overly romanticized notions of freedom. Its not good for the Macedonian cause and it makes you look crazy.

About Russia, no one spoke of "reality", you delve too quickly into a theoretical struggle and your self lose touch with the reality of what people are saying. I spoke about some potential scenarios and how Russia would react to them, I never said whether it was right or wrong, logical or illogical, real or unreal. You eventually said what I said in the first place.

Seriously though, the way you speak about death, irks me. It just sounds fake, it just sounds like something theoretical that you would never actually do which in the end makes it worthless.

Gocka, you seem to be very easily 'irked'. We are talking about one country invading another. At this stage, the time for diplomacy is well and truely over. If the country that is being invaded wants to preserve its liberty, then "irky" or not, it needs to go to war. The other option is just to rollover and "whatever man". I'm not saying war should be the first option, anyone who follows my posts will know that I would make it my absolute last option, however, in this case Russia has moved that right to the forefront.

You seem to be going off into a fit there - you should learn to relax. Its not like I was suggesting mass suicide or something - I'm just stating the obvious. If that's such a "scary" thought, I wonder how you feel about (original) VMRO's "Freedom or Death" slogan. That was not romantisiced BS (nor is what I'm saying). It was simply a statement of fact by individuals who could no longer tolerate their conditions of life and had determined to either live free or die trying.

Its quite a common occurance in fact - you should look it up.

In a general sense, we don't usually have more than 100 years. No one wants to die prematurely, but many, many people do because of desease and accidents. And its sad. But its no different than dying in war for a purpose - collective freedom on which you're own personal freedom usually hinges, protection of your family and property and so on.

[Gocka]

I would be lying if I said that I dont have a bit of a temper.

My main point was for Ukraine to not be stupid and play into Russia's hands. I believe Russia wants Ukraine to fire the first shot so it can do a smash and grab on Crimea. My point was if Ukraine jumps the gun and give Russia a reason, people would die in my opinion unnecessarily. Then you spoke about it in a way that just sounded awfully cavalier to me and just it bothered me.

No one is denying that in a time of war you have no choice, you think I would let anyone lay a finger on my family? Again my main point was that no one should die prematurely if it can be avoided, and I am talking about both Ukrainians and Russians here.

Also I dont think you can compare the situation in Crimea with that of Ottoman enslavement which lasted centuries, it kind of makes light of it no?

Anyway, the reality of the situation is that Russia is being a piece of shit and capitalizing on the strong pro Russian stance of Crimea, and also taking advantage of the fact that everyone knows that it would turn into WW3 if anyone tried to stop them. The Russians know that no one wants to take that risk to oppose them militarily. They are going to end up with Crimea and no one is going to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Gocka, you seem to be very easily 'irked'. We are talking about one country invading another. At this stage, the time for diplomacy is well and truely over. If the country that is being invaded wants to preserve its liberty, then "irky" or not, it needs to go to war. The other option is just to rollover and "whatever man". I'm not saying war should be the first option, anyone who follows my posts will know that I would make it my absolute last option, however, in this case Russia has moved that right to the forefront.

You seem to be going off into a fit there - you should learn to relax. Its not like I was suggesting mass suicide or something - I'm just stating the obvious. If that's such a "scary" thought, I wonder how you feel about (original) VMRO's "Freedom or Death" slogan. That was not romantisiced BS (nor is what I'm saying). It was simply a statement of fact by individuals who could no longer tolerate their conditions of life and had determined to either live free or die trying.

Its quite a common occurance in fact - you should look it up.

In a general sense, we don't usually have more than 100 years. No one wants to die prematurely, but many, many people do because of desease and accidents. And its sad. But its no different than dying in war for a purpose - collective freedom on which you're own personal freedom usually hinges, protection of your family and property and so on.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

I believe Russia wants Ukraine to fire the first shot so it can do a smash and grab on Crimea.

Your saying that Ukraine should provoke Russia or give it an excuse, its already done a 'smash and grab' on Crimea. And because its done it with no opposition whatsoever, and no consequences, it will only be more encouraged to do the same in Eastern Ukraine.

I'm just interested, if Russia were to move into Eastern Ukraine (Russophile territory), would you still recommend that the Ukrainians 'sit tight'? What if it then moved into the rest of Ukraine? At what point would it be ok for the Ukrainians to defend their country?

Lets bring it closer to home - at what point would it be ok for Macedonians to defend their country? Sure, if they 'sit tight' and don't "provoke" the Albanians by defending themselves against extremists they might not get hurt, but where do we draw the line?

As for comparisons between the Ottoman era and Crimea today, people don't need centries of oppression to actually be oppressed. The fact that they are no longer in control of their own country and foreign soldiers are on the ground is enough. Even so, I would imagine the Tartars are feeling pretty uncomfortable right now, knowing that only 60 years ago Russia deported them to Siberia in an attempted genocide. They certainly do not want to live in a Russian state - where do they join the line and how tight and for how long should they sit?

[Gocka]

I'm saying Ukraine should not act hastily. You need to win the war not the battle. The Russians are well prepared in Crimea, they have been even before this conflict broke out. It took them a matter of hours to effectively put the entire region under their control. The fact that most of Crimea wants to join Russia just adds to the miserable situation for Ukrainians. What are they to do about Crimea? Most of them want to separate, so even if they drove the Russians out through a bloody war then what? Then what do you do about the majority of that region that still want to separate and join with Russia? Force them to stay? Go to war with them too? Wouldn't forcing the majority of Crimea to remain Ukrainian when they feel Russian be a form of oppression, or require oppression to keep them from trying to separate?

If I were to equate it to Macedonia I would say the same thing. If tomorrow Tetovo wanted to separate from Macedonia and join Kosovo or Albania, what would Macedonia do? Go to Kosovo and kill as many people as possible to make them stay? Its the same with Kosovo, you even said it yourself, it was a matter of time. Even if the west didn't help, it would have eventually come to the same conclusion.

There is a line, its a blurry line and clear heads have to prevail. Even if Ukraine were to hold on to Crimea this time, it will be a matter of time before they rebel and try it again. Even if Serbia were still fighting with Albanians in Kosovo today what would be the outcome? A lot of dead people and a region still full of Albanians who now more then ever want to separate from Serbia.

Ukraine needs to act smart and hold on to eastern Ukraine. Build an army deploy it in the east, so that tomorrow Russia cant just walk in and take the whole place over in a few hours.

The same thing will eventually happen in Macedonia and there nothing you can do. You can fight and kill all you want but at the end of the day if 85% of Tetovo is Albanians who and what are you fighting for? The blood stained land? I'm not saying its right, but in reality what is your option? There is no point of thousands dying just to arrive at the same place again.

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Your saying that Ukraine should provoke Russia or give it an excuse, its already done a 'smash and grab' on Crimea. And because its done it with no opposition whatsoever, and no consequences, it will only be more encouraged to do the same in Eastern Ukraine.

I'm just interested, if Russia were to move into Eastern Ukraine (Russophile territory), would you still recommend that the Ukrainians 'sit tight'? What if it then moved into the rest of Ukraine? At what point would it be ok for the Ukrainians to defend their country?

Lets bring it closer to home - at what point would it be ok for Macedonians to defend their country? Sure, if they 'sit tight' and don't "provoke" the Albanians by defending themselves against extremists they might not get hurt, but where do we draw the line?

As for comparisons between the Ottoman era and Crimea today, people don't need centries of oppression to actually be oppressed. The fact that they are no longer in control of their own country and foreign soldiers are on the ground is enough. Even so, I would imagine the Tartars are feeling pretty uncomfortable right now, knowing that only 60 years ago Russia deported them to Siberia in an attempted genocide. They certainly do not want to live in a Russian state - where do they join the line and how tight and for how long should they sit?

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

Its the same with Kosovo, you even said it yourself, it was a matter of time. Even if the west didn't help, it would have eventually come to the same conclusion.

I said that the war in Kosovo would happen regardless, not that it would result in the same outcome.

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

I said that the war in Kosovo would happen regardless, not that it would result in the same outcome.

So what would the outcome have been? Serbia would have killed a million people and regained control of Kosovo? Or would they still be at war today? What can the end result possibly be?

[George S.]

the Russian stance is not giving anything away but when the us is involved it will get serious.It will require the coalition of the willing .It will be them & us.I think putin has bit more than he can chew.He didn't make allowances for a breakaway Ukraine which has been on the cards for a while.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Gocka

So what would the outcome have been? Serbia would have killed a million people and regained control of Kosovo? Or would they still be at war today? What can the end result possibly be?

Gocka, I didn't respond to the rest of your email because your comments are detached from reality, they ignore what's actually happened in the past and are a case of 'selo gori, baba se cesla'.

[Risto the Great]

I propose Crimea separates from Ukraine.
It wants to be in Russia but pretends it is doesn't.
The USA will like this, it has a wonderful precedent in Kosovo for this.
What is the difference here?

[Gocka]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Gocka, I didn't respond to the rest of your email because your comments are detached from reality, they ignore what's actually happened in the past and are a case of 'selo gori, baba se cesla'.

I know Tom, only you live in reality.