The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Giorikas
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 316

    Originally posted by El Bre View Post
    The issue as I see it, is that a position was taken whereby being Macedonian automatically meant that one was by extension Greek, (Macedonia 4000 years of Greek history, Macedonia is Greece and so on) this in turn led to the question, what is a Greek? Pervasive in this debate is the sentiment that because someone speaks a slavic language or is a slav (whatever that means) that person somehow cannot be a Macedonian, so naturally the retort becomes, how can someone who spoke Albanian and was clearly an Albanian now be a Greek? The ethnicity card was played by the Greeks as a reflex action and was countered with similar logic. While I agree, there are other issues, the issue of ethnicity has become part of the greater package.

    My 2 cents.
    Hombre,

    Thanks for your 2 cents. So you're saying, the Greeks are wrong doing that, so we'll do the same ? My 2 cents ? A lot is speculation. Of the worst kind.
    I read a lot about Karamanlides here being merely Turk Christians. What the relevance of that is is not clear to me since we are supposed to be discuss Macedonia ( and yes I see the bigger picture ) but frankly all these assumptions bring us nowhere. We know they spoke Turkish, but so could anybody else have living in the Balkans for example.
    Fact is that they chose not to identify with Turkish since being so isolated (otherwise we wouldn't be discussing about them) in the heartland of Turkey, that would have been the easiest thing to do. Also they chose not to abandon their religion, and as third distiction they kept their unique way of writing the language they spoke (and it is not at all excluded that they could have spoken Greek in paralel, not only the village priest)
    Let's not get into details here. Fact is, they were moved to Greece. Not a fact is that they were Turks, but again, let's not get sidetracked.

    In my example I gave earlier, things are not that clear either. Surely, if 1 on 2 Macedonians I met acknowledges this,(the mother habving both parent being Greek) surely it could have happened more. But it's irrelevant. And me calling them an inverse form of 'Grekoman' as some of you are happy to decribe 'non believers turning Greek' would be stupid. Fact is, she was by 'blood', whatever that may mean, pre-destined (following the logic I often read) to be Greek but chose to be with you. So be it. The story ends there.

    All your lost brothers on the Greek side of the border will slowly too be absorbed into mainstream Greek society. That's for sure. If not now, it will be a generation later. This doesn't make me particularly happy, and I don't particularly see why that should be a good thing thing, but it's a lost cause the way I see it. In my opinion minorities add something to any society, like me being on this forum trying not to be aborbed or kicked out
    Greeks have accepted that that will probably be the case of the Greeks in Constantinopel (having a Turkish passport in most cases though), unless they start intermarrying and having many babies very soon.

    My 2 cents ..

    Hombre, all that wasn't directed at you personally, I trust you understand that.

    Giorikas

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      Giorikas, you have used the example of both parents being Greek and the child being Macedonian at least a couple of times. A skeptical part of me feels that you are playing a little game with this. But I will leave that for now. If my parents were self-identifying as Greeks, I would question it. Like many Grkomani children do, they are perplexed with the idea of not being able to speak Greek and having different cultural customs to that of "mainstream Greeks". In the example you give, perhaps the child is acutely aware of the contradictions that it's parents are forced to live with. Who is more correct in this case?
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • El Bre
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 713

        Thanks for your 2 cents. So you're saying, the Greeks are wrong doing that, so we'll do the same ?
        It's more of a case of point / coutner-point as opposed to two wrongs not making a right.

        In my example I gave earlier, things are not that clear either. Surely, if 1 on 2 Macedonians I met acknowledges this,(the mother habving both parent being Greek) surely it could have happened more.
        This is not a common occurance. Certainly not 50%

        Fact is, she was by 'blood', whatever that may mean, pre-destined (following the logic I often read) to be Greek but chose to be with you. So be it. The story ends there.
        This is all too vague and ambiguous to even comment on.

        All your lost brothers on the Greek side of the border will slowly too be absorbed into mainstream Greek society. That's for sure. If not now, it will be a generation later. This doesn't make me particularly happy, and I don't particularly see why that should be a good thing thing, but it's a lost cause the way I see it.
        Why should it be a lost cause? In every other civilized country in the world, 2nd and 3rd generation Greek kids go off to Greek school (Even ones that are products of mixed marriages) so as to not lose their language and culture. This seems to be very important to these parents. Do you believe that it is somehow less important to the indigenous peoples of Greece? There are very few Greek speakers left in Italy but the Italian government strives to protect a particular Greek dialect of their own initiative.

        Hombre
        Quando me cambie el nombre?
        Last edited by El Bre; 09-09-2008, 06:58 PM.

        Comment

        • Delodephius
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 736

          About 3/4 of Slovaks in Serbia go to a Slovak school. Other minorities too. There are only 50.000 Slovaks in Serbia and other minorities like Rusyns and Romanians half as much. Yet in Greece I suspect there are more Macedonians than us Slovaks here.
          अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
          उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
          This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
          But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

          Comment

          • osiris
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1969

            Giorikas another apologist for greece here to muddy the waters and to justify to himself and to others the theft of macedonia. its a waste of time trying to be hospitable to most greek posters , especially the ones that pretend to be open minded and liberal.

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              Osiris, you are such an emotionally dark Egyptian God.
              I believe Giorikas will be the very first Greek on a forum who was honest about his true intentions from the get go.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • Delodephius
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 736

                Let go of your emotions. Come over to the Dark Side. We have cookies.
                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                Comment

                • osiris
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1969

                  rtg i am over greeks bearing gifts, after ll this time , i have found a few greek posters i admire, and they are kat fatso alki and southern neighbour, lets face it the rest are so insecure about their hellenism they cannot ever see any thing that doesnt not justify their bullshit.

                  alki spins me out he is a gem. fatso is a genuine friend of masos hlm is a wonderful human being looking fortruth and harmony, sn is a young guy with potential. the rest are rabid anti macedonian racists i dont give a stuff what they say anymore. justifying oppression doesnt sit well with e.

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    Now, Finaly published his work in 1861, and as I said before he makes many references to Greeks, but at the same time, he is very vague about who they are.

                    He makes numerous references to Greek Captains. For example, he calls Kolokotrones a Greek, but at the same time calls hiim a "Vojvoda" and from an Albanian family.

                    So, we have Greeks as ethnic Albanians.

                    Secondly, as far as the Ottoman Pashas are concerned, it was a requirement to know and speak Turkish, not particularly at the coal face of the Turkish army, but most certainly in the middle administration of the Empire and up.

                    Finlay, writing in the 1850's, refers to Greek in the Ottoman administration as "Christian Turks". p.14

                    So, we have Greeks as Turks.

                    Thirdly, as too the "identity" of Greeks, even Finlay can't ignore something. He writes that the Greeks are "confounded by orthodoxy and nationality".

                    So, the "Greeks" (who are we speaking about?) have no religious or national identity. p.9

                    Finally, he writes about the Greeks in the Constantinople pasha as being the most numerous. But he writes the most common language in the day to day converse of people is Sclavonian.

                    So, the Greeks are the most "numerous" yet the most "common" language is Scalavonian.

                    Here is why: Finlay writes that many "Albanians, Servians, Bulgarian and Wallachians (and Macedonians) prayed under the guidance of Greek patriarchs and bishops".

                    So more Greeks, but of various ethnic origins.

                    He calls Agrapha Greek, and yet writes that "300 Albanians remained as a permanent garrison in Agrapha" after its liberation. p.27

                    He writes that Hydra and Spetzas were Greek, and the first to proclaim independance as part of the Greek State, but at the same time, writes that the ethnic composition of Hydra and Spetzas were ENTIRELY MADE UP OF ALBANIANS. Again, Greeks as Albanians.

                    No clear Greek identity emerges, and Finlay can find nothing from a cultural, national or ethnic point of view, that separates the New Greek from various ethnic groups. This is not an insignificant thing, if you consider that here is a guy writing several volumes of history about the Greek people, yet can find no distinguishing national, or cultural characteristics to separate them from the various ethnic groups of the Ottoman province.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      So, the Greeks are the most "numerous" yet the most "common" language is Scalavonian.
                      Hmmm, very interesting. I wonder if any Greeks are feeling ill yet?
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • osiris
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1969

                        all the phil hellenic historians talk the same way, while realising the non greek origins of most greeks, they then claim but they have a right to be greek, and do you know why they all make this seemingly illogical claim. its because they need to justify their own pro hellenic notions, they want a greece to exist because its psychologically important for western historians and politicians to have a modern nation representing the glory of hellas.
                        a racist europe needs a pure greek nation to represnt the pure ancient greeks who apparently discovered everything and created everything form scratch, a preposterous and ahistorical view of ancient history.

                        Comment

                        • Pelister
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2742

                          Originally posted by osiris View Post
                          all the phil hellenic historians talk the same way, while realising the non greek origins of most greeks, they then claim but they have a right to be greek, and do you know why they all make this seemingly illogical claim. its because they need to justify their own pro hellenic notions, they want a greece to exist because its psychologically important for western historians and politicians to have a modern nation representing the glory of hellas.
                          a racist europe needs a pure greek nation to represnt the pure ancient greeks who apparently discovered everything and created everything form scratch, a preposterous and ahistorical view of ancient history.
                          The E.U worships Greece, and Greece will always be the darling of the West.

                          Many members of the E.U very likely pity the modern Greeks, and their nationalism, or politely humor them. I don't for a second believe that the people in the E.U genuinely believe all the garbage come out of modern Greece.

                          Greece is turning out to be the brat, in all of this; and I think the E.U feels responsible for this child.

                          Comment

                          • Giorikas
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 316

                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            Giorikas, you have used the example of both parents being Greek and the child being Macedonian at least a couple of times. A skeptical part of me feels that you are playing a little game with this. But I will leave that for now. If my parents were self-identifying as Greeks, I would question it. Like many Grkomani children do, they are perplexed with the idea of not being able to speak Greek and having different cultural customs to that of "mainstream Greeks". In the example you give, perhaps the child is acutely aware of the contradictions that it's parents are forced to live with. Who is more correct in this case?
                            Risto, the fact that I used the example 2 times is not the problem. The fact that that makes you skeptical is the problem. You are the problem, since apparently you have difficulties to accept that these things happen all over the Balkans or outside and are a 'normal phenomenon' and nothing more then that. It doesn't mean that the Greek government made also mistakes handling minorities in general, but many of you seem out of touch with reality thinking that the big bad Greek government is responsible for everything that you don't like to see happening. There are many things changing in Greece.

                            Apart from that I agree with your description of what happens with 'Grkomani'.

                            The example is particular case has to do with Greeks, but that can easily be substituted with any kind of nationality and be substituted with any kind of country. These things are found everywhere in the Balkans.

                            In this particular case, I worked together with the daughter of the Greek-Macedonian lady. The daughter just felt just local. Not Macedonian, not Greek. Spoke neither and was far away from her mother's weird customs and language. She in her turn just intermingled with er mainstream society and had her father's name on top of that.

                            The mother who came from Macedonia, married locally and spoke Macedonian (no Greek) and did not identify with anything else. Daughter told me she hates Greeks as I mentioned.
                            I can only speculate from here on, but I am not sure that she chose to identify with Macedonians instead of Greeks because of free choice, or by external pressure, but it happens all the time that children just don't want to be different then their environment is. She made her choice so it seems.

                            To answer your question: Correct is that she does what she feels comfortable with. I find it a shame that anybody should forget where they are from and what they are, but this is what she became and this is apparently what makes her feel better. Who are we to tell others what they should do and how they should feel?

                            Giorikas

                            Comment

                            • Вардарец
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 122

                              Originally posted by Giorikas View Post
                              Who are we to tell others what they should do and how they should feel?

                              Giorikas


                              I quoted you. Now tell your quote to your government, and wait for an answer
                              For the glory of the Hellenes! Abandon orthodoxy and join your true religion! http://www.hellenicreligion.gr/... Zeus awaits you!

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                Risto, the fact that I used the example 2 times is not the problem. The fact that that makes you skeptical is the problem. You are the problem, since apparently you have difficulties to accept that these things happen all over the Balkans or outside and are a 'normal phenomenon' and nothing more then that.
                                Can you highlight similar "happenings" in the Balkans outside of Greece?
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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