Dienekes' salto mortale!

[Bratot]

The well known Greek propagandistic "Anthropology blog by Dienekes Pontikos" finally accepted the truth



Finally, structure in haplogroup R1a (Underhill et al. 2009)

I have lobbied for more structure in R1a to be discovered since the early days of this blog, and finally the R1a monolith seems to be cracking.

(Watch this space for my comments once I read the paper).


UPDATE (Nov 05):


This paper makes a very important contribution by studying the diversity and distribution of Y-chromosome marker M458 defining the new haplogroup R1a1a7.


R-M458 reaches high frequency and diversity in central and eastern Europe. It is virtually absent in northwestern Europe, the Near East, and Asia east of the Urals. The maximum frequency is reached in south (36.4%) and central (33.3%) Poland.


The earliest expansion time for R-M458 is found in Poland (10.7ky), but since the paper uses the effective mutation rate that I criticized elsewhere, this date should be divided by a factor of 3 giving an age of 3.6ky. This matches quite well the age for the Balto-Slavic split according to Gray and Atkinson. As with the recent paper on J-P58, adopting the germline rate makes excellent sense.


If R-M458 had started expanding 10.7ky ago, then by the time of the early dispersals of Kurgan groups east, it would have been present among them, and we would expect to find it east of the Urals and in the Near East/Central/South Asia. To reconcile this age with the archaeological picture of west-east movements across the steppe seems impossible. However, the situation resolves itself neatly when we realize that J-P58 is only 3-4 thousand years old, and was not in existence at the time of the Kurgan expansion.


However, the paper also is inconsistent with an origin of R-M17 either in a glacial refugium or with the expansion of the Kurgan culture, as the diversity of R1a1a*(xR1a1a7) is not particularly high in either Russia or the Ukraine and is much higher in India and Pakistan:
Analysis of associated STR diversity profiles revealed that among the R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes the highest diversity is observed among populations of the Indus Valley yielding coalescent times above 14 KYA (thousands of years ago), whereas the R1a1a* diversity declines toward Europe where its maximum diversity and coalescent times of 11.2 KYA are observed in Poland, Slovakia and Crete.


Hopefully we will not have to wait another decade for the R1a1a* chromosomes to be further resolved, and thus yield signal(s) specific to the archaeologically attested trans-Ural spread of the Kurgan culture and/or the Indo-Iranians.


There are also other useful conclusions that we may draw from this study:


1. The presence of R1a in Scandinavia does not reflect any sort of Balto-Slavic admixture, as R-M458 is lacking in them. This, coupled with the discovery of R1a chromosomes in ancient remains from Eulau and Lichtenstein in German territory suggests that R1a was present among ancient Germanic speakers. However, there is also structure in R-M458 frequency in Germany itself, with lowest percentages reached in the north and west; this suggests an admixture with Baltic and/or Slavic elements in present-day Germany itself.


2. In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.


3. The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.


4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong.
The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

* My correction of greek terminology

[Daskalot]

Good news Bratot, can you post the original in Greek as well?

[Bratot]

It was published in English

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html

[Daskalot]

Oh ok, sorry, I assumed that it was originally written in Greek. Thanks again!

[makedonin]

This "Antropologist" turd knew this for a long time.

Still he supported the Millers letter to Obama posting it on his blog.

He was "telling us", that if we are to get any closer to call our selfs Macedonians, that we should start learning Greek.

As much as he learns from those Antropologist papers, he ain't gonna stop spitting the Greek propaganda.

That sums it up for me about this "Antropologist" or rather said racist.

[I of Macedon]

Well it concurs with all previous genetic papers, so its of no real surprise. This will also be the case with future research

Yet for the Greeks, they still cant seem to fit the information together. I guess because it conflicts with their Greek school and political education.

So he is saying that Macedonians are barely different from Greeks based on one genetic frequency and what of the others???? Yet inadvertently him stating being barely different still means different, again this seems to be a comparison with one frequency of 3.8%.

Of course we have genetic similarities with the Greeks just as we do with other Balkan people, as we are all a mixture of various races but with the exception today that we have specific identities. Also we speak a different language from the Greeks have a different culture and different identity. Thus, we are different.

Also, even if it could be ultimately proven with certainty that the Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek (that is they didn’t have their own language, unlikely as it is)), all it would prove is that today Macedonians (who are proven not politically but scientifically yet again to have Balkan descent) speak another language. So were is the dilemma. That people are not allowed to speak or adopt another language because modern day Greeks said so. Would it be a crime against humanity???

So if todays Macedonians decided to abandon Macedonian and completely integrate the English language - would we now be Englishmen, who’s roots would then all of a sudden stretch to England, thus would have no ancient Balkan descent.

The Greeks really have to stop looking at Ancient History (or at least in the sense that their version of History is flawless) to interpret the modern day and age. More specifically they need to understand that language does not necessarily equate to ethnicity, this is not only true for today but throughout human history.

[makedonin]

Look at the moron in the lower parts of the comment group, answering the question of another moron.:

"Even if the Macedonians * are mainly of pre-Slavic stock, how can they have a lower R-M458 frequency than the Greeks if they were historically under the prolonged ethno-cultural influence of the Slavs (i.e. Bulgarians)?"

They don't have a lower R-M458 frequency than the Greeks as the frequency difference is not significant. I really see no difficulty here; the early Slavs that settled in the Balkans had a high R-M458 frequency but were dissolved genetically in the pre-existing populations. North of Greece they were able to spread their language, while in Greece they weren't able to wipe out the Greek-speaking element which reasserted itself with time. The situation parallels that of the Romance speakers, with Latinity taking root in the more rustic north and Greekness persisting in the south, even though there were very few Italian settlers who were the agents of Latinization.

He means north of Modern Greece, including the occupied Macedonian territories.

And still, there is amount of evidence, that in today's "greek" Macedonia, the the Macedonian language was the same as the language in the Republic of Macedonia at least prior to 1924 .

BUT there is still evidence that very same Macedonian language exist today, although forbidden.

I guess banishing the a language is what he calls "resisting it self".

And than the other greek having trouble digesting his answer:

Makes sense, but isn't a 3.8% frequency in Macedonians * mathematically lower than a 4.2% frequency in Greeks and an 8.8% frequency in Grkomanian* Greeks? Yes, you are absolutely correct in that the differences are negligible. But do the geneticists provide an explanation as to why the frequencies of R-M458 are lower in Macedonia * than in Greece if we know from history that the Macedonians *were the ones who were linguistically and ethno-culturally "Slavicized" during the Middle Ages?

The cry baby has problems with mathematics. His Grkomanian Greek have much higher Slavic influence than the Macedonians in R. of Macedonia.

Time to lose your mind freak, if any left.

* My correction for the stupid greek retorics.

[Daskalot]

It is quite funny to see how they realize that the Greeks living in their annexed part of Macedonia do have a higher R-M458 frequency(8.8%) than what we ethnic Macedonians have from the Republic(3.8%), this would mean that they have a double doze of Slav heritage compared to us

So how does that fit into their deluded thinking?

Could a Greek internet warrior please tell us how that adds up?

[makedonin]

You hit the nail on the head Daskale.

Don't you see, they are breaking.... Calling us "Slav", well they should look at the mirror and point their stinky finger to their image.

[Risto the Great]

are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language

We cannot be sure of this. This part is merely an assumption.