Concerning the non-Greek origin and history of Asia Minor

[Carlin]

1) Samos is an island in the eastern Aegean Sea.

1204: During the fourth crusade Samos is granted to Venetians until 1247.
1346: Genoese come to Samos.
1476: Because of pirates Samians immigrated to Chios and Asia Minor - Samos remained deserted of residents.
1549: Recolonization of the island with the aid of Kilic Ali Pasha.

Occhiali (Giovanni Dionigi Galeni or Giovan Dionigi Galeni, also Uluj Ali, Turkish: Uluç Ali Reis, later Uluç Ali Paşa and finally Kılıç Ali Paşa; 1519 – 21 June 1587) was an Italian farmer, then Ottoman privateer and admiral, who later became beylerbey of the Regency of Algiers, and finally Grand Admiral (Kapudan Pasha) of the Ottoman fleet in the 16th century.

Born Giovanni Dionigi Galeni, he was also known by several other names in the Christian countries of the Mediterranean and in the literature also appears under various names. Miguel de Cervantes called him Uchali in chapter XXXIX of his Don Quixote de la Mancha. Elsewhere he was simply called Ali Pasha. John Wolf, in his The Barbary Coast, refers to him as Euldj Ali.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occhiali


2) "Dad, are we Laz or Turkish?":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG9pAnjquT0

[Carlin]

I recently asked a Thessalian man if there there were any Pontian refugees that settled in the region where his family lives. I also asked him what was his opinion in terms of the ethnic ancestry and heritage of the Pontians.

He replied that in his region, no. No refugees from Anatolia. In other parts of Thessaly there were some, but mostly people from western Anatolia and not Pontos.

He also said:

"Pontians were known as Lazi, which is the name Byzantines used for the nation today known as Georgians. But they are not exactly the same as Georgians. They are a mixture of many different tribes of Caucasus and Anatolia + Armenians."

[Carlin]

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

[Niko777]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

Thanks for sharing this with us Carlin. I'm not surprised at what you found. Slavic toponyms are common in Thessaly, I first noticed this when looking at old maps of Macedonia and seeing the names of villages on the Thessalian side of the Macedonia-Thessaly border. What surprised me was the individual you met knew about his non-Greek origins and was open in sharing this information with you. But then I realized this issue was never politicized in Thessaly as it was in Aegean Macedonia. So when it comes to discussing these topics people of Thessaly might not feel the same amount of shame, or paranoia, or obligation to adhere to Greek nationalist ideology, like the people in Aegean Macedonia do.

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

Maybe in his region not but Vlachs were most likely present in all of Thessaly. In fact south-eastern Thessaly was the first region that Vlachs were attested.

Vlachs and Albanians were called to populate deserted zones with Slavic placenames, just one example:
''Anna Komnene reports a Vlach settlement near Mount Ossa in 1083''
''alternative Kissavos (Κίσσαβος, from South Slavic kisha "wet weather,f rain"
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mo...869444!5m1!1e4

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

I recently asked a Thessalian man if there there were any Pontian refugees that settled in the region where his family lives. I also asked him what was his opinion in terms of the ethnic ancestry and heritage of the Pontians.

He replied that in his region, no. No refugees from Anatolia. In other parts of Thessaly there were some, but mostly people from western Anatolia and not Pontos.

He also said:

"Pontians were known as Lazi, which is the name Byzantines used for the nation today known as Georgians. But they are not exactly the same as Georgians. They are a mixture of many different tribes of Caucasus and Anatolia + Armenians."

They are not exactly Lazes either because of the major Armenian (and other Anatolian) influence on them. They have some ancient Greek ancestry too but it is safe to assume it is minimal, probably 5% or less.

[Carlin]

That's within "statistical error".

Some Pontians likely have some ancestors who were also:

- indigenous Anatolians
- Iranians
- Turkic tribes
- Various people who migrated to Pontos and converted to Orthodox Christianity and adopted the Common Greek language
- Muslim women who married Pontian males and were converted to Christianity, and many others.

[Carlin]

The existence of Bulgarian villages in Anatolia was noted by western travellers such as the Italian Dr Salvatori (1807), the Frenchman J.M. Tancoigne and the Briton George Keppel (1829). Tancoigne describes his experience in Kız-Dervent (located farther east, between İzmit and İznik) as follows:

"We were pleasantly surprised by finding in that village women who would walk with their faces uncovered, and men whose manners contradicted the Asian ones entirely. We also discovered dresses of the residents of the Danube's banks and heard a Slavic language in an area where we would regard it as absolutely foreign ... The locals told us they were of Bulgarian origin and their village had been founded almost a century ago by their fathers ... The residents of that village are Christians, Eastern Orthodox."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians

[Carlin]

The nation of Tzanoi (Sanoi), Romans (Roman army, Roman soldiery, Roman territory, emperor of the Romans), Armenians.... What am I missing here?

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

The nation of Tzanoi (Sanoi), Romans (Roman army, Roman soldiery, Roman territory, emperor of the Romans), Armenians.... What am I missing here?

The fact that you're not in Asia Minor probably.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanni



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